Thursday, June 21, 2012

"Ethnic" Myths and Agitprop Foolishness: Confronting the Historical Fiction that is the Willie Lynch Letter

This speech was said to have been delivered by Willie Lynch on the bank of the James River in the colony of Virginia in 1712. Lynch was a British slave owner in the West Indies. He was invited to the colony of Virginia in 1712 to teach his methods to slave owners there. 
[beginning of the Willie Lynch Letter] 
Greetings, 
Gentlemen. I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First, I shall thank you, the gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. 
Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies, where I have experimented with some of the newest, and still the oldest, methods for control of slaves. 
Ancient Rome would envy us if my program is implemented. As our boat sailed south on the James River, named for our illustrious King, whose version of the Bible we cherish, I saw enough to know that your problem is not unique.  
While Rome used cords of wood as crosses for standing human bodies along its highways in great numbers, you are here using the tree and the rope on occasions. I caught the whiff of a dead slave hanging from a tree, a couple miles back.  
You are not only losing valuable stock by hangings, you are having uprisings, slaves are running away, your crops are sometimes left in the fields too long for maximum profit, you suffer occasional fires, your animals are killed. Gentlemen, you know what your problems are; I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them.
"Ethnic" myths cut both ways across the color line.

Behind Dr. King, Brother Malcolm X, and Barack Obama, Willie Lynch is probably one of the most discussed and recognizable figures among the African American public. While the first two are lions of the Black Freedom Struggle, and Obama is President of the United States, good ol' Mr. Lynch was a white slave owner who insidiously mapped out a master plan that continues to divide, conquer, and oppress black America into the 21st century.

His reach is long. In fact, I cannot go one year without a black student bringing up Willie Lynch. I rarely go one month without hearing his name mentioned at the barbershop or on the bus by someone earnestly trying to make sense of the day-to-day challenges facing black Americans.

However, there is a problem here: Willie Lynch and his infamous speech are fictions, smart examples of political propaganda that came into being during the latter part of the 20th century. 

As I alluded to regarding the myth of "No Irish Need Apply," for those black folks seeking an explanation for their own particular historical and political predicament does it matter if the Willie Lynch Letter is a fraud?

I used to believe that the Willie Lynch Letter was true. While I was going through my "conscious black man" phase in college, an upperclassmen friend sat down and dropped the secret wisdom contained in the Willie Lynch Letter on all of the younger brothers who were hanging out in his campus apartment playing Spades. It was really illuminating. All of the structural, political, economic, and social ills facing black people in America could be traced to this one devious white man who outlined a plan centuries ago to make black people disorganized, servile, and weak. Profound. This was the racial version of Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology cult. 

Thankfully, I had some great professors who did not accept nonsense thinking and easy solutions. One of these saints was an older Afro-Caribbean scholar who was known for being a tyrant--he threw whole groups of students out of class for wasting his precious time; would humiliate fools with ease; and if you came to him seeking knowledge he would do his best to train you up like Pa Mei did The Bride in Kill Bill.


I shared the Willie Lynch Letter with him during our independent study course Slavery in the New World. He looked at the document curiously and then suddenly became disturbed. I asked him what he thought. His reaction was akin to that of a robot being confronted with bad data. He stood up and walked out. We would get to talk next week when he had an answer.

Seven days later my professor calmly and seriously told me that this document is utter garbage. I asked "how?" and "why?" He explained that part of the joy of being a historian and a social scientist is that you can actually use your brain to answer questions. 

He proceeded to take out a pile of documents and a map. He told me to read the letter aloud. I did. Thus the obvious problem, the language is not written in 18th century English. My teacher then produced a map. He had underlined the passage in the Willie Lynch Letter that gave a hint as to geography and the location of the author's plantation. Again, the narrative did not match the facts. As an example of archival research, he produced records of the plantation owners in that area, a census, and other materials in order to determine if Willie Lynch actually existed as a person in the West Indies. None could be produced. Finally, how could Willie Lynch who supposedly gave this speech in 1712, know about Frederick Douglas, a figure in the 19th century? Was Willie Lynch a time traveler?

In all, my mentor explained that people want simple answers. As such, they seek out conspiracy theories in order to make sense of their lives. It is easier to believe in white trickster slave owners who have genius intellects than to accept a basic principle: people are rotten, they are barbaric, and will exploit each other whenever they get a chance.

Chattel slavery was just a global example of white European barbarism. Willie Lynch was not necessary. White slave owners did not need him to refine the industrial scale production of the plantation because they had agricultural journals and conferences where all aspects of the chattel system could be discussed.

Nevertheless, the Willie Lynch Letter remains both powerful and influential because it resonates with the target audience. What do we do with such true lies? Does the seductive power of the Willie Lynch Letter rest in its ability to describe the social challenges facing many in Black America, and to provide some clarity and meaning for those who feel overwhelmed and lost?

If so, should our empirical standards interfere with the explanatory power and psychic validation offered by a cultural myth? 

Just as many white folks would feel a personal affront at any critical engagement with the hard times white ethnic myth, there are many African Americans who would become personally upset and hurt if the Willie Lynch Letter was exposed for the "true lie" it is.

100 comments:

Steven Augustine said...

"In all, my mentor explained that people want simple answers. As such, they seek out conspiracy theories in order to make sense of their lives."

"Conspiracy theorist" is the "Commie" of the 21st century: a psycho-social stink bomb for shutting down the discussion. As a pejorative, it falls apart, under a little rational scrutiny, quicker than the "Willie Lynch" letter. Substituting the term "Conspiracy theorist" with "Sexual-Abuse Accuser", for example, reveals the obvious: the terms don't say anything about the supposed motives, qualifications or thought processes of the target. They say nothing about the IQ or reliability or demeanor of the target. The "CT" pejorative is rich in aura and terribly poor in data. Which is how we prefer our public-opinion-shaping disses, eh?

In a world in which no actual conspiracies had ever been perpetrated, or in which they were rare, the term might mean something. But on a planet such as *ours*, in which the term "conspiracy" actually has a *legal definition*, calling anyone a "Conspiracy Theorist" in 2012... very much like calling someone a "Commie" in 1957... says so much more about the caller than the called, Bro.

Short version: you were easily duped as a wide-eyed sophomore... and....? Well at least you didn't fall for that crazy bullshit about "Bush stealing the 2000 election" that some not-at-all respectable Conspiracy Theorist Negroes were irresponsibly parroting a little while back! Some deranged Negro actually told me he heard they were dumping Negro ballot boxes in the Everglades...! (*rolls eyes like Mantan Moreland*)

But, seriously, CDV... anyone who's looking for a "simple answer" here: what's simpler than chanting "Obama" over and over again? (You see what I did there.)

Anyway, wouldn't it be somewhat more... ahem... apposite... to discuss Edward Bernays?

chaunceydevega said...

@Steve. I love old Eddie. Offer something up. Just because one is paranoid does not mean they are crazy. There are actual conspiracies. Sure. There is also lots of nonsense and fodder like that Loose Change mess and Will Lynch crap.

Remember, I count myself among those who believe that the U.S. either did not land on the moon, never left, or were warned off by aliens. 9-11 is also a big anti-climactic cover up where the facts are hidden in plain site but the mouth breathers and the media don't want to investigate it.

There is no "conspiracy" to support Obama. It ain't that complicated for most nor does it need to be. Parsimony sometimes is just that--parsimonious.

Steven Augustine said...

CDV:

I don't think your support of BHO is part of a "conspiracy", but I admit I believe BHO (and all candidates for figurehead CEO of AmeriCo) falls in the category of a "simple answer" for many, many of his believers.

And if you're thinking of citing Occam at any point, I would move to preempt that with the suggestion that his razor may be more-or-less apt in the pattern-analysis of *natural phenomena* (it's still debatable) ... but it's useless applied to the actions of men and women, which are often *intentionally* complex in order to defy analysis, Bro. Especially if they're *smarter than we are* (and they sometimes are).

Steven Augustine said...

Re: Eddie: he was the real Willie Lynch, man. For *all* the Slaves (not just we Negroes)

Razor said...

Speaking of "true lies".I too having watched Paul Thompson's "9/11: Press for the Truth" documentary many times, am convinced that our government was involved with allowing the Twin Towers massacre to take place with the cooperation of Pakastan's intelligence agency ISI. I purchased it from LinkTV during their fund drive. It proves once again how gullible US citizens really are and just how corrupt, evil and dangerous those in real power in this country are. In it it shows how we purposely allowed Bin Laden and a vehicle convoy while others of his group left Afghanistan by plane convoys is a relaxed and orderly fashion.This was done after Al queda took credit for the bombing, if that was all that it was. This staged catastrophy set the rest of the stage for all of the fear-mongering hysteria which followed and the nebulous War on Terror against whole countries not associated with the bombings, followed by the Patriot Act which seemed to suddenly appear out of someome's file cabinet or thin air in all of it's volumnous splendor. So thick was it that noone read it, yet approved the draconion measures.

The second true lie is thst we have a Black President....who is channeling Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger and Darth Vader in his domestic and foreign policy. He also beginning to take on the qualities of ....I hate to say it....Clarence Thomas....only he still walks and talks like a cool Denzel Washington. What is happening to me? Am I dreaming or am I somehow conspiring some macabre theory? Will someone expose the imposter who...my main man CD...says that he is going to vote for anyway. With all of the shady things he is doing and trying to do he has me terrified with the drone list, the growth of the surviellance state, the militarization of the countries law enforecement agencies, insulting black folks by telling them that the need to stop complaining though they are catching the most hell from every angle you and your family can be screwed. I'm trying to have that hope that I can believe in, but it' just not happening.

I am watching a Willie Lynch Letter play out in our president. What say you?

Abstentus said...

"[p]eople are rotten, they are barbaric, and will exploit each other whenever they get a chance."

Truer words are rare, but for the twin sibling of that:

"People are often stupid and rather selfish."


I never heard of this letter before. And I did not bother to read all of it because the first few lines reminded me of James Michner's "Caribbean." Which, to my mind, provides as unsentimental as it is un-sensational a depiction of plantation life in the Former Spanish Lake, as it does a rich history of the Effed Up Ness of the history of that "lake" generally.

The eye opner for me in reading that, first time, was how the Dutch might have been the worst offenders. Was it they who first figured out it was cheaper (during the height of the slave trade) to just treat slaves badly and work them to death, and go buy another, than take care of them? Or was that the French? I forget.

I think that every US school pupil should have to read that book like, some time in Middle School. The history of that "lake" is the history of all of us in North America, even those who do not come from the lake or the main.

Anonymous said...

"9-11 is also a big anti-climactic cover up where the facts are hidden in plain site but the mouth breathers and the media don't want to investigate it"

So 911 is a real conspiracy, yet
"There is no "conspiracy" to support Obama."

My suggestion is to connect the dots. But, of course that would require a certain amount of political detachment.

And of course an Obama conspiracy is beside the point. The intent is to support Obama. Now if, say, someone used furtive means to accomplish this intent, maybe, depending on how many others he is able to persuade, we might have something that we could call a conspiracy.

CNu said...

There is no "conspiracy" to support Obama. It ain't that complicated for most nor does it need to be.

um..., your surpassingly uncritical support for Obama has you caught rather conspicuously on the horns of a logical consistency dilemma CDV.

Every.single.day brings fresh revelations about exactly how difficult it has become for the Jack and Jill establishment to fix its mouth around the topics of race and democracy - while serving as the elite establishment's primary slave-catchers in charge.

Constructive Feedback said...

My Dear Friend Chauncey DeVega:

I how that God and your life experiences finds you in good physical and spiritual health.

I am puzzled about one thing regarding your "Willie Lynch letter" expose'.

WHY are you focused so much on its AUTHENTICITY (with regards to the time and authorship) more than you dare to question its APPLICABILITY as a reference in understand how the Negro acts with regard to his Present Prevailing Consciousness?

With all due respect, sir, it is my opinion based upon adept observation that the KOREAN MERCHANT is the best student of "The Willie Lynch EFFECT". Few Koreans care about the "carbon dating" of the artifact - as you seem to focus upon.

They understand that there is a group of people with.............

1) A consumer consciousness
2) That always searches for EXTERNAL affirmation from others
3) That allows internal peer pressure to trump any sort of Transparent Group Consciousness and/or Dignity
4) That are rather TRANSACTIONAL in their emotive expression

I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY, Mr DeVega!!!!! And you too Greg Thrasher.
We are merely having a heart felt disagreement among brothers who love each other.

(Pssst - keep an eye on "Within The Black Community" as I am preparing a response to your "I Don't Like" video and related post. )

chaunceydevega said...

@Razor. I don't see Willie Lynch. I see a corporatist imperial president who is the lesser of two evils. No conspiracy necessary.

@Abstentus. I will check that book out. Thanks. I had heard of it, but it has been years since I read it. Good reminder.

@Anon. I am politically detached. I am not an Obamabot who writes every day and mentally ejaculates over his presidency. Not here. Obama is using the same focus groups, marketing techniques, slogans, and other means that other candidates have to maintain, mobilize, and expand support among his public.

Curious. Who are you going to vote for? Do you think Mitt Romney's policies will help the working class, poor, middle class, and people of color less or more than right leaning centrist Obama's?

Just on tax policy alone I cannot vote for Romney. Not a conspiracy, just a calculation and choice.

@Cnu. My support isn't uncritical. I just don't find it productive to highlight and complain about the president's shortcomings in policy making all the time. I feel this way especially before what is going to be a close election. Call that what you will. Other folks can do that and do it well.

In their complaining they should be quiet if they get what they wish for, i.e. Obama is not elected a second term; I do not want to hear any howls of pain and murder when Romney comes to town because they aided and abetted such an event.

@Constructive. Applying crap theories built upon a crappy foundation gets you nowhere. I don't need silly agitprop mess to examine the state of black political economy. I agree with you on building black indigenous institutions, the damage done by internalized racism, and how black people are so damaged and brainwashed they quite literally give their money away to people who despise them.

Anonymous said...

"Curious. Who are you going to vote for"

That is indeed a quandary. I will give it serious consideration and get back to you. (Lessee, which sociopath would be better to lead the nation? Which better on war and civil liberties? Hmmmm......Let me think.)

CNu said...

I just don't find it productive to highlight and complain about the president's shortcomings in policy making all the time.

lol, yet you DO find it productive to chase the phantoms of racism which over the past 40 years have done a tiny fraction of the lethal damage that Obama has managed to accomplish in less than 3.5 years?

This is EXACTLY why "ism" studies in the academy are doomed beyond any possible reprieve...,

Comrade Physioprof said...

Truth is its own reward, and "true lies" almost always have unintended adverse consequences that outweigh their initial benefits.

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. You are fun. Please explain lest how four decades of white institutional racism have been trumped by 3 years of Obama. Goodness. Reasonable defensible claims that can be supported by the data are your friend Cnu. What metrics are you looking at?

I have asked this before, you are supported by the public sector and the academy broadly defined, why are you so intent on destroying it?

What is the fear, concern, worry, etc? You always talk about "use" as measured by what? That is a dangerous game which the right is playing as they try to destroy any field of study that can produce information (and active critically thinking citizens) that exposes the neoliberal market con game.

CNu said...

@CDV - lol, I don't think you can specify any "institutional racism" in the last 40 years which has witnessed the rise of so many utterly incompetent 2nd/3rd line inheritor of the civil rights movement public sector administrations.

Less'n of course you're now on the ConFeed bandwagon and identifying these incompetent carpet bagging negroes as the anti-black parasites and destroyers that I would unhesitatingly point them out as being.

Nah brah, your rights been as civil and defensible under law since the day you were born, and, your money been as green as anyone else's since 1968 - as also your capacity to earn it and spend it as you see fit. So..., the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate even the existence of white institutional racism in the U.S. over the past 40 years, most particularly given the culmination of that 40 years with the current occupants at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

As far as the damage that the head occupant in charge has caused - we needn't even examine his kill list, drone war, and expansion of systematic killing in multiple countries under Africom, we can just stay domestic and look at his continuing indefensible commitment to the so-called War on Drugs, implementation of NDAA, bailout of banks rather than mortgagees, and his Boule administered Haitianization of what remains of the U.S. economy.

you are supported by the public sector and the academy broadly defined, why are you so intent on destroying it?

I'm a lifelong IT guy learning everything there is to know in practice about data center virtualization, distance learning, and enterprise-class bring your own device and one-to-one computing. The technologies involved with this activity are broadly applicable outside education, but for education in particular, they are the writing on the wall signaling the inevitable demise of the 19th century teaching model.

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Really. Job market discrimination, housing market discrimination, the mortgage scams, the criminal justice system, disparate law enforcement, "race neutral" policies from Nixon on that were anything but.

The continued subsidy of the white middle and upper classes to the practical exclusion of others--see the idea of the submerged state. Environmental racism, disparate health outcomes because of racist treatment by doctors, crappy schools that are aided and abetted by the State.

I am sure others can add onto the list. We ain't under Jim and Jane Crow formally--the system is rigged and as I say white supremacy is the greatest invention ever because it can adapt to now being such that white people claim they are the victims of "racism."

There is a counter-intuitive outcome from Obama's election that Fred Harris and many others inside the game have been talking about for some time. But the collateral damage of Obama's "victory" and its consequences for black politics are a different subject than your suggestion that Obama's is the greatest anti-black and brown evil since Bull Connor et al.

I missed your comment about my "racism chasing." I playfully use that term, but I am not one. I don't have to chase white racism for it to impact all of us. I simply call out the examples of my choosing.

I have a fun post on racism chasing for Monday or Tuesday that some of you will get a kick out of, or as some always do find, upsetting.

CNu said...

Job market discrimination, housing market discrimination, the mortgage scams, the criminal justice system, disparate law enforcement, "race neutral" policies from Nixon on that were anything but.

Let's go one-by-one.

1. Job market discrimination

Objective, deep, and current technical skills make you marketable no matter what. If your employment is "relationship" based, i.e., who you know and who knows you and then gives you the hookup, well, then you may just be shit out of luck. No Institutional racism here, and surely not since Nixon instituted affirmative action.

2. Housing market discrimination

Money green means you can buy anything, anywhere you want and no one can legally prevent you from doing so. No Institutional racism to be found here either. (If on the other hand you're ignorant, stupid, uninformed, or legally naive, you may have been serially bent over for a long period of time)

3. The mortgage scams. (see 2. above)

4. The criminal justice system and disparate law enforcement.

Cops are lazy, and, they're not rocket scientists either. Consequently, CSI mythological horseshit notwithstanding, they tend to pursue low-hanging fruit criminals who trivially rat one another out. (no pun on pants sagging intended).

Unless you can make the case that markets don't intrinsically disadvantage stupid people, then I don't think you can make the case for what you've termed "institutional racism". I'll give you a quite specific and concrete case in point. Go to your nearest state district court house and attend some of the debt collector hearings. Go and see what happens to the droves and droves of people who don't know their rights under the law and no nothing about the law itself. I guarantee you you will witness some hellafied disparate impact, but there's not a shred of "racism" or "institutional racism" at play, unless you're willing and able to prove that the entire Illinois state judicial system and all those members of the bar practicing in court before the same are "instituionally racist".

CNu said...

Here's the thing CDV, when it gets down to brass tacks, your institutional racism charges NEVER, NEVER, NEVER hold water to the evidentiary standards required under law. Why else you think the EEOC has become such a neutered and ineffectual joke? If there was as much "institutional racism" as you would have us believe, successful lawsuits would be chock-a-block in response to the same.

The continued subsidy of the white middle and upper classes to the practical exclusion of others--see the idea of the submerged state. Environmental racism, disparate health outcomes because of racist treatment by doctors, crappy schools that are aided and abetted by the State.

Crappy schools run by negro adminstrators and negro boards of education are crappy because the 2nd/3rd line inheritors in charge are corrupt and incompetent, PERIOD!

The medical industrial complex is anchored by professional services providers who want to be handsomely compensated for their services. You get what you pay for, and, it is always wise to have as close a personal relationship as possible with your physician(s) - my wife is close friends with all three of our family physicians, two black women and a filipina.

Environmental racism? Nobody forcing anyone to live near the refinery or the meat packing house. If that's all you can afford, then that's all you can afford.

Politics and economics alike have always been and will always be stacked in favor of the rich, "them what's got shall get, them what's not shall lose" and all the rest. Nothing new or specifically racist about that fact. Hell the rich negro living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave would be among the first to disabuse you of any childishly naive notions to the contrary. His Jack and Jill Boule minions who strictly enforce much of what you've noted above and wrongfully attributed to "Institutional Racism" would be among the very next to confirm to you the fundamental truths of the matter.

Haven't you been educated to a sufficiently advance degree, and acquired sufficient access and exposure to how the world really works to see all of these things for yourself?!?!?!?! Seriously dood!!!

Obama's is the greatest anti-black and brown evil since Bull Connor et al.

rotflmbao...., the "ism" studies are terminally stuck on the horns of dilemma here.

Obama IS beyond any shadow of a doubt, VASTLY more devastating to black and brown than Bull Connor could have ever dreamt of being. But for you and your'n to come to terms with the terror of the situation that his presidency has brought to bear, you'd be forced to repudiate all of your decades of racism-chasing myth-making.

And.you.simply.cannot.bring.yourself/selves.to.doing.that.

Squaring up with the truth about the nature of our political economy would do to race studies what the heliocentric model of the solar system did to archaic catholic doctrine.

Don't feel bad CDV. You're not the only one duped into pretending that the unicorn of systemic/institutional racism is real. However, your "discipline" is one of the very few that fails to recognize the simple fact that if what you teach is in fact true, then lawyers would be stacking Tobacco and malpractice bank on all the racism that you all pretend is in effect. At the very minimum, we should be able to agree that if it was real, it would meet legal burdens of proof. Is it not so?

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. I appreciate your in depth comments. The data doesn't support your claims however. Besides, who would get farther in life, the laziest black man or the laziest white man all things being equal? I will leave the answer open.

CNu said...

The data DO in fact support my claims. More importantly, however, is the fact that the data do not support very many legal claims, and that my friend - is precisely where the wheel meets the road, is it not?

Whether the wheel that Thurgood Marshall rolled waaaaaay back in the day, or, the wheel that the Martin family attorney is attempting to roll.

Since we both know that this data exists and can be accessed, and by extension, the full extent of what you refer to as "institutional racism" meeting uniform burdens of proof can be ascertained - it then stands to reason that no one in racism studies has compiled this data precisely because it would fail to support the discipline's hyperbolic claims.

And that, at the end of the day, is what differentiates social "studies" from social science. Errbody wanna play at the studies and say popular things that make them feel good, but nobody wanna get serious about the trivially doable science.

Everything else is just 24 hour news cycle conversation....,

chaunceydevega said...

@cnu. why do you treat the law and courts as neutral arbitrators when given all that you have offered these years suggests you know better?

job discrimination, housing, banking, health care, the evidence is there and has been tried, repeatedly demonstrating racial bias against people of color. racism isn't an opinion--again which you know. what is the disagreement?

you are an archivist. review some discipline and punishment and tell me that the courts are socially, ethically, and politically neutral.

is this a case of disagreement about the world as it is vs. the world as it should be?

is the u.s. court system fair or unfair to blacks and latinos cnu? i would like to hear your answer because the evidence is pretty obvious. and given that fact, maybe the disagreement is one of interpretation or implication?

Anonymous said...

Institutional racism is alive and well. I don't see how anyone can honestly deny it.

But, back to the Obama conspiracy. Here's a prescient quote from yesteryear.

“What we see and interpret as power is an illusion…Blacks are now elevated to “Head Nigger in Charge” only when a situation has become so hopeless officials don’t want to risk putting one of their own in charge. It is often a token put there to rescue a situation grown hopeless. Don’t be deceived by those moves and think they come about by rightness and righteousness. They are motivated by institutional racism… What we see and interpret as power is an illusion…” Dr. Marcus A. Foster, First Black OaklandUnified School DistrictSuperintendent, 8 Months before Being Assassinated on November 6, 1973[1]

http://mindcontrolblackassassins.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/president-barack-hussein-obama-the-eve-of-post-human-renaissance-cyborgs-mass-murder-mayhem-the-state-of-permanent-warfare/

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]lol, yet you DO find it productive to chase the phantoms of racism which over the past 40 years have done a tiny fraction of the lethal damage that Obama has managed to accomplish in less than 3.5 years?[/quote]

Brother CNu:

I disagree with your tactics on this matter.

While you expertly analyzed the desperation of the "Jack & Jill Crew", you should know that they are merely going to "double down" in the face of a perceived attack by you upon the person they live vicariously through.
Ironically YOUR ATTACKS will become their raison d'état. You are the reason why Obama failed.

I make no bones about my agenda. My plan is to DESTROY the SOLD OUT NEGRO CONSCIOUSNESS that draws other people along with them as they apply Soul Food Seasoning upon the lure that they know that Black people will bite upon. As it stands it is POPULAR to follow along with them and fight battles that are not their own, mostly because the group won't attack you for selling out as such.

Obama did not destroy the USA as such.
The ship is sinking and Obama merely used the tools that his IDEOLOGY instructed him to use to respond to such a threat. Yes these tools caused the ship to take on more "debt water".

At a macro-level the Black Community and America within which this community is nestled are on a tragic course. My criticism of Black Leadership is that after they took over our community institutions via political conquest they KEPT PLAYING POLITICS, taking their eye's off of the prize of the obligations that they were now responsible for.

As my posting about my dear friend Chauncey DeVega's plea to "Black Writers" is still in draft form, I make the case that Mr DeVega and others in his clique seem unaware of their need to have a Black Community "Cultural Jihad" in order to impose a set of SOCIAL NORMS and enforce them. This is the very disposition against which they fought as they believed that the "maintainers of culture" were oppressive and deniers of "Social Justice".

The Student Has Now Become The Teacher.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Blacks are now elevated to “Head Nigger in Charge” only when a situation has become so hopeless officials don’t want to risk putting one of their own in charge.[/quote]

Anon you make no damned sense.

I recently rebutted the claims from the new book "The Price Of The Ticket" (or whatever it is called) in which a Black author assesses the Obama presidency.

HE TOO makes the claim that "A Black man was put into power during a time when the roof was on fire".

I pulled out the VOTING DEMOGRAPHICS from 2008 to show that this is a fraudulent analysis.

If WHITE PEOPLE set up a Black man to fail then we must conclude that it was the 43% of the White Folks who are left-of-center that voted for Obama, along with the 95% of Blacks that are guilty of what you allege.

Ironically the (Racist) White Conservatives that are trying to run the First Black First Family out of the White House that is seeking to put the burden for this nation's fate upon a White man named Romney.

CNu said...

why do you treat the law and courts as neutral arbitrators when given all that you have offered these years suggests you know better?

lol, I don't treat the courts as neutral, rather, I accept them as fair and uniform (legal precedent) in their application to the cases with which they're presented.

is this a case of disagreement about the world as it is vs. the world as it should be?

It's a disagreement about narrative and emphasis.

Your narrative and emphasis (and I use "your" as discursive designation of you as representative of your discipline) has done a profound disservice to the masses. Twere better you had obtained a JD - as also all your colleagues in social and political studies - and compiled your academic narratives as legal briefs instead.

is the u.s. court system fair or unfair to blacks and latinos cnu?

Not at all. The court systems at every level are fair and uniform in their application to every case brought their way. If cases are incompetently brought, then you are at the mercy of a system you don't fully comprehend. On the other hand, if you have competent narrative representation, (think Orenthal James Simpson) you can be guilty as sin and free as a jaybird.

The current occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. (who not ironically obtained his JD with distinction from Harvard Law) has basically rendered your narrative frame moot, and in its application, harmful to those who take up its tropes, leaving folks with mental handicaps leading them to intone utter nonsense such as; Institutional racism is alive and well. I don't see how anyone can honestly deny it.

CNu said...

@Bro.Feed

My plan is to DESTROY the SOLD OUT NEGRO CONSCIOUSNESS that draws other people along with them as they apply Soul Food Seasoning upon the lure that they know that Black people will bite upon.

lol, uh..., how's that working out for you online thus far?

Here's the thing Feed. Errday, I ask my subalterns to "bottomline" their complaints about this, that, or the other thing.

This "bottomline" discipline is really very easy, and it would undoubtedly serve you and your "plan" very well.

What it consists of is;

1. Document a current state
2. Document a goal state
3. Specify resources required to get from the current state to the goal state
4. Put a timeline to the process you've defined for getting from the current state to the goal state so we can measure the results you obtain.

Don't come into my office with a belly full of complaint until and unless you've made the basic effort to narratize and document the help you need from me in order to improve the condition about which you'd like to complain.

My time and attention are finite and valuable. I want to know "what can I do for you?" i.e., your bottomline for seeking out my time and attention - and that's an inflexible prerequisite for my effort.

Right now, and for all the years in which I've observed you daily and hypergraphically documenting this agenda of yours, CUH, CUH, CUH-LEARLY nobody has ever sat you down and asked you to bottomline your complaint.

Consequently, all that you do is complain and get ridiculed, notwithstanding the fact that your complaint is valid.

Take the time to give some thought to what exactly it is that you propose to do about the current state condition you vividly and repetitively describe daily. Give folks something resembling an actionable "bottomline".

Otherwise all your writings are just so much energetic pissing into the wind.

Anonymous said...

@Constructive Feedback

"I pulled out the VOTING DEMOGRAPHICS from 2008 to show that this is a fraudulent analysis."

Not disputing this necessarily but not sure how this refutes the claim that

"Blacks are now elevated to “Head Nigger in Charge” only when a situation has become so hopeless"

It fits the historical pattern. When did we first begin to see black mayors? When cities were in decline. In the same way black mayors get blamed for the mess they inherited and the failure of the cities is attributed to this change from white governage to black, so Obama has been placed in charge of a, you might have noticed, a sinking ship. He'll be blamed for it. And, vicariously, Black people will be blamed for it.

And I didn't say white people set him up; though the people who created Obama are white. The PTB set him up. Though they are white (and Jewish), they are only a fraction of a fraction of the 1 %.
And, through psyop, propaganda and mind control they can persuade the mass of white people to do anything they want. Witness the T party. And blacks. Witness the Obots. Both factions working dilligently against their own best interests.

"43% of the White Folks who are left-of-center that voted for Obama, along with the 95% of Blacks that are guilty of what you allege."

Not guilty. Just
gullible

Tom said...

Interesting discussion.

There is one good thing about the courts: when you're done talking something actually happens.

Also, I'm here to tell you, legal action is what white people threaten when we want to frighten each other. Of course the courts are biased, but do I want to go there and find out if they're biased enough? Ehhh, let's maybe talk some more about how much you're offering for the house.

Imagine the Empire of Japan refusing to build aircraft carriers because that is the white man's weapon.

Anonymous said...

"Curious. Who are you going to vote for"

I thought about it. I could never vote FOR Romney. That would be complete capitulation to the forces of evil.

So now the quandary. Barama fooled me in 2008. I thought he was going to change the course of this murderous regime. Instead he normalized it. Made it palatable to liberals (like yourself). I was duped before. Mainly, I was a hopeful that at least the extreme levels of empire madness would be abated. We could step away from the precipice. But just the opposite happened. Barama exceeded Bush in warmongering and destroying the social safety net and our civil liberties. While in 2008, I didn't know how bad Barama was going to be. In 2012 he is a well known quantity. I can't vote for him in good conscience. I don't know if I'd ever be able to wash the blood off of my hands. In the absence of a third party, I'll either be sitting this one out or protesting in the street this corrupt political system.

Steven Augustine said...

"Imagine the Empire of Japan refusing to build aircraft carriers because that is the white man's weapon."

Exactly. Imagine the white man refusing to use the zero because that is the Hindu's numeral!

But seriously, Tom...look how the Racialist Paradigm tempts us toward errors peculiar to it; you write as though bringing us inside information from the glowing core of De White Debbil's
dark Satanic Mills.

I heartily disagree with CnU's otherwise-cogent (possibly disingenuous), post-Randian argument, but I don't think his Wrong is less worldly than yours merely because he's a Negro (if he is). I mean, that's the illusion we need to shake off, isn't it? White Serfs and Black Serfs (before anyone storms off in a huff: a Serf can be worth "millions") are not *essentially* different, in this Simulocratic Empire, whatever Hollywood sells you.

Tom, you're probably marginally less likely to be arrested than CnU (I'd need to see profile pix to tell), and less likely to make a white chick shit (or cream?) herself if stuck alone with you for 42 seconds in an elevator... but these are trivial advantages (like eating raw onions, vs garlic, before a kissing contest).

The concept of Race, itself, is racist. It's only in place for one purpose.

Non seq:

Hey, anyone want to read some slightly avant Sci Fi...? It extrapolates on the theme of Negrocide, I suppose...

https://staugustinian.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/gypsies/

Steven Augustine said...

Ooops, sorry:

GYPSIES

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Maybe we are talking past each other. There is no evidence that the the law is "neutral." It is a tool that is produced by a given society and an agent of/for various interests. The law has never been neutral in any regard. Period.

As I said check out Foucault for one of the most direct interventions on the matter. We have a ton of data as I like to say about disparate sentencing along lines of race, how you can overlook that I do not know. Is it just an inconvenient anomaly for your theory, a huge one you want to pretend doesn't exist?

chaunceydevega said...

@Anon. "Barama fooled me in 2008. I thought he was going to change the course of this murderous regime. Instead he normalized it. Made it palatable to liberals (like yourself). I was duped before. Mainly, I was a hopeful that at least the extreme levels of empire madness would be abated."

You made some assumptions that were in error. This country has never been a true democracy. In some basic ways it has ceased being a democracy several decades ago and is on the road, if not right around the corner from being an inverted totalitarian state. America is an empire. Why joe q public does not understand that is beyond me. As an empire the imperial presidency is going to keep expanding as it has been since the 60s.

chaunceydevega said...

@Constructive. I eagerly await your treatise that is in draft. When will this grand document see the light of the world? Will there be a birthing party?

I am a bit concerned as your work is inspired by a false premise--I have never deleted anything that you have written. Why you need to make up fictions is beyond me. I have actually tried to be helpful towards you.

Is this just a sense of grand importance on your part, that you want to believe that I care enough about what you offer, your thoughts so profound, that I would go out of my way to police you?

You are not a victim except perhaps of your own grandeur and repetitive musings.

Also, your claims are made immediately suspect in other matters as well. You have written a "review" of Fred Harris' new book and admit to reading the preface/intro from google books.

That is like writing a movie review based on a synopsis. Is all your critical thinking/writing/work as facile?

CNu said...

There is one good thing about the courts: when you're done talking something actually happens.

There's the knockout.

Dead on the button.

"Studies" and "Conspiracy Theories" out cold...,

Tom is truth!

Accept no substitutes....,

Also, I'm here to tell you, legal action is what white people threaten when we want to frighten each other.

bears repeating;

LEGAL ACTION IS WHAT WHITE PEOPLE THREATEN WHEN WE WANT TO FRIGHTEN EACH OTHER

rotflmbao...,

silly-assed, bone-in-their-nose jiggaboos call folks "waciss" and "unkotom" and pack up the clown car to go march and make phuggin faces. that's why they cain't have nothin, and cain't do nothin.

everything else is conversation....,

CNu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
CNu said...

Maybe we are talking past each other. There is no evidence that the the law is "neutral." It is a tool that is produced by a given society and an agent of/for various interests. The law has never been neutral in any regard. Period.

You're repeating yourself worse than Thrasher and not saying a damn thing.

We have a ton of data as I like to say about disparate sentencing along lines of race, how you can overlook that I do not know.

Dood!!! WAKE UP!!!

I'm.the.death.squads.man!

There is one good thing about the courts: when you're done talking something actually happens.

LEGAL ACTION IS WHAT WHITE PEOPLE THREATEN WHEN WE WANT TO FRIGHTEN EACH OTHER.

EVERYTHING else is merely conversation.

But please CDV, waste another 15 years of your life talking about race and possibly even becoming one of that handful of designated professional negroe go-to heads on TEEVEE if you're lucky. Just don't pretend for even one instant that you or the discipline are doing anything more meaningful or useful than that.

That's why the Ford Foundation put the discipline in place to begin with. THE single most cost effective and politically effective counter insurgency OF ALL TIME!!!

Tom said...

Steven,

Hm, good points. If I'm understanding Lesson One correctly & remember my history, in fact European mathematicians viewed the heathen Zero with fear and loathing for some centuries.

But seriously, Tom...look how the Racialist Paradigm tempts us toward errors peculiar to it; you write as though bringing us inside information from the glowing core of De White Debbil's
dark Satanic Mills.


Mm, yeah. So, leaving aside the embarrassing foolishness of my pose, I'm twisted up in exactly the same ball of salt-water taffy I'm supposedly trying to pull myself out of.

Steven Augustine said...

"There is one good thing about the courts: when you're done talking something actually happens."

Nothing to get excited about there, my good fellows. Like every activity with a financial transaction or two at its heart (or behind the scenes), not only does something "happen", in the end, but the results tend to please the highest bidder.

Also, Tom, if you mean to cast aspersions on activities in which nothing appears to happen as a result, why not sneer at every philosophical discussion ever held? Before you can invent a flying machine, you have to imagine a flying machine.

If we, for one minute, think that Popular Opinion (and public discussions feeding into it) is of no consequence, we don't understand what all the propaganda (aka "entertainment") thrown at us is there for... which is probably why it's working.

Around the time, a little while back, that Israel started getting nasty press for boarding activist ships (and executing some of the passengers), pro-Israel ringers began popping up in comment threads all over the Normative Liberal Bloggoverse (eg, 3Quarks Daily was a target).

Those boys would appear to understand the game rather well.

The Old Civil Rights Model of marching and sit-ins is still fun and a great way to socialize, but those only worked when The Man could be petitioned, for clemency, as a Father Figure (height of the Cold War's PR drive, etc). Shit don't work no more.

The shit that *does* work (incrementally, even) is the shit so many are working so hard (Yo, Sunstein!) to make you undervalue. A little cross-color/class Brother and Sisterhood on a site like this (not sure what your traffic numbers are at WARN, of course) is poison to the muhfuhs.

Steven Augustine said...

(cross-posted!)

Tom said...

Oh, Steven, also

3. If there's no such thing as race (and if enough of us stop clapping our hands, presumably Tinkerbell does eventually die), then maybe I don't need to feel as silly as I do right now.

4. I'll check out your story.

Steven Augustine said...

Tom:

"Race", shoe-size, whatevuh... the Tribalists can always find a collating trick if they want to. But do *we* want to?

Tom said...

Steven,

Also, Tom, if you mean to cast aspersions on activities in which nothing appears to happen as a result, why not sneer at every philosophical discussion ever held? Before you can invent a flying machine, you have to imagine a flying machine.

No, if something really is happening, I'm fine. I've spent a lot of time believing doctrine-bound antiracism^TM; what got me disenchanted with it was I felt we were not shaping the future.

Sneering at philosophical discussion ... well I have to admit that my brother CNu and I were both born into this world as engineers. I suspect we are going to do some sneering at philosophical discussions, rightly or wrongly. Hopefully that can be controlled in cases where it is harmful.

Steven Augustine said...

Tom:

Modern Civilization is based on your Discipline (not that gaudy sham "Science") so I salute you! (Or not...?)

Steven Augustine said...

PS

"No, if something really is happening, I'm fine."

Shit really happens all the time. Often Bad!

Tom said...

Steven,

1. Kinda! Maybe! Have you read Longitude by Dava Sobel? There are people who say they understand things if they can write them up coherently, and there are people who say they understand things if they can make one work.

2. Well, I meant something good happening. I admit a lot of things happened while I was involved in talk-therapy antiracism, but few of them were good and fewer were related to a bunch of us flying-monkeys running around the internet barking at people. Fun, but not productive, was what I finally decided. Maybe wrongly!

Tom said...

1b. Yeah, if the world gets blown up, that was the physicists' fault.

Steven Augustine said...

"I admit a lot of things happened while I was involved in talk-therapy antiracism..."

Good Gawd, man, I would've died laughing! That kind of thing is usually doomed to fail owing to a faulty premise (something along the lines of "Black folks can't be racist"...)

Not only can Black Folks be Racist... they're often as *anti-Black Folks* as any Granfalloon out there...

Steven Augustine said...

I will seek out the Sobel book

Steven Augustine said...

"1b. Yeah, if the world gets blown up, that was the physicists' fault."

I like CERN jokes, Tom!

Tom said...

Are you at CERN? Because w/r/t this: if you mean to cast aspersions on activities in which nothing appears to happen as a result, , I'm currently putting an awful lot of time into improving my chess. Compared to me a lot of the time, CERN is working dutifully at its uncle's used car business.

Steven Augustine said...

@Tom

Never at CERN but it comes up fairly often in conversation

Steven Augustine said...

@CDV and WARN: sorry, this is some srsly off piste shizzle! well rein self in starting (gets out stop watch)... now

Constructive Feedback said...

My Dear Friend Chauncey DeVega:

My repetition is a function of my observation of the lack of capacity of some individuals to go past "hearing" as the move up past "listening" and achieve the goal of COMPREHENDING and then OPERATIONALIZING.

Anonymous said...

@CD
"You made some assumptions that were in error. This country has never been a true democracy."
Funny. I don't remember making that error.

@Steven
"Not only can Black Folks be Racist... they're often as *anti-Black Folks* as any Granfalloon out there..."

Shhh. Don't say that too loud. It don't go over too well around here.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]So now the quandary. Barama fooled me in 2008. I thought he was going to change the course of this murderous regime. Instead he normalized it. Made it palatable to liberals (like yourself). I was duped before[/quote]

Anon:

What you suffer from is the lack of dimensional / spacial cognizance.

Maybe if you more clearly define what you are STRUGGLING for, then do as the "Sustainable Food People" are doing and "ACT LOCALLY", note that by overly-nationalizing your struggle you are merely ensuring its FAILURE and thus focus on adopting good LOCAL GOVERNANCE and then RINSING AND REPEATING within other localities - you might actually obtain the SOCIAL JUSTICE that you figured that Obama would grant to you.


Help me out here.
In my mind a force that GOT YOUR "VALUABLES" since the 1960's as they promised to develop you, yet in your present desperation - they know that when they come back for more you will believe you have no other option - IS A FORCE that is a greater threat, IN MY WAY OF THINKING, than the force that is kept outside of your fortress that the confidence men who took your valuables said they needed in order to wage a fight against them.

Maybe the "OTHER WAY" is the pathway that was never paved because you went along for the ride with the confidence man?

Anonymous said...

Boy you guys really are presumptuous.

"you might actually obtain the SOCIAL JUSTICE that you figured that Obama would grant to you."

Never said that either.

Brotha Wolf said...

Actually, when I heard about this letter a few years ago, I also came across an article that explained it's falsehood. It was written by an African American professor. I don't remember his name, but he had some excellent points.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of fiction mistaken for fact, Matt Stoller explains the Baramacon.

"Many criticize Obama, with the idea that he doesn’t understand, and if only he understood, he would change his mind. This is part of his false narrative of hope and change. But Obama reads Paul Krugman – he studied the left intensely and spent years as a community organizer. He understands his opposition, those crying out for justice against the powerful, and finds them laughable, finds in them weakness at best, a punchline at worst. He reads his left-wing opponents so he can absorb the talking points, and rebut them. Some think that Obama can be appealed to around the better angels of nature, that he’s naturally with “the left” but must be gently praised. But again, this is more of the false hope and change narrative. Obama understands Saul Alinsky. He gets left-wing ideas. But he hates the left, with the passion of any bully towards his victims. To him, they are chumps, weak, pathetic, losers. They are such pathetic losers, in fact, that they will believe anything he tells them. And Obama has no better nature, he is what he’s done in office, someone who murders children with drone strikes and then jokes about it to his rich friends."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/06/back-obama-the-cool-self-aware-irony-drenched-con-artist.html

CNu said...

Even when all the relevant data are present, and, quite rigorous examination of those data occur, it's haaaaaard to determine what exactly one is looking at differential access and exposure, relationship or racism?

Although our models do not fully explain the funding gap, the greatest differences between blacks and whites that we observed were in the effect of previous training and the probability of receiving a priority score. Although more research is needed to discern the basis for the award differences, it is possible that cumulative advantage may be involved (15). Small differences in access to research resources and mentoring during training or at the beginning of a career may accumulate to become large between-group differences. This suggests that more analysis on the impact of NIH training may be warranted. In addition, further research into the review process could help to understand why variables that increased the likelihood of an application receiving a priority score for the full sample did not have the same impact for applications from black investigators.

chaunceydevega said...

@cnu. of course. no one ever proposed a simple model. but be careful, don't overreach based on one study of one very narrow part of the social world, one that is focused on a very small subset of professionals. if these highly trained brothers and sisters are encountering resistance we can only imagine what is happening to the rank and file.

there is another angle to those findings as well. in the review process topics that black and brown researchers and to a lesser degree women propose may not be deemed "sexy" or "rigorous" or "real" science. why? the reviewers, many of whom are male, white, older and of a certain political and disciplinary bent are reproducing themselves.

this happens all of the time, so while the process is blind in theory, in practice it often is not (depends on the granting agency) and lots of messed up stuff happens behind the scenes in terms of who gets the money (I have seen this personally and have heard more than a few stories from folks I trust)


the research on race and resumes would suggest that employers use many decision rules to sort out "black" applicants. as you know white felons with lower qualifications have a better shot at getting a call back than blacks with mbas from elite universities.

there is a great report done during Bush 1 (a white man so you know it must be true) that documented long standing patterns of discrimination in the hiring and promotion of people of color in corporate america.

any of joe feagin's books provide great cites and lists of resources that do a great job of documenting systemic institutional bias.

one of the most damning findings about the myth of meritocracy in this country is that black people, and black men in particular, do not receive an equivalent return on investment for their college and graduate degrees.

this is aggregate level data that would flatten out individual differences between a given black or white person. when you see a pattern such as this it suggests that there are external forces at work independent of a given person's competence, talent, ability, or drive.

Anonymous said...

I'm not following this part of the debate. A waste of time. Arguing that there is no institutional racism is like arguing that the world is flat. In a word it's absurd. I seem to recall that this was brought up a while ago. Flat earthers probably don't believe its true.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Steven Augustine said...

@Anon

Agreed. Strange.

CNu said...

lol, instead of covering their eyes and ears and playing "hear no/see no" - the slow kids should take this part of CDV's essay to heart;

Seven days later my professor calmly and seriously told me that this document is utter garbage. I asked "how?" and "why?" He explained that part of the joy of being a historian and a social scientist is that you can actually use your brain to answer questions.

The endless metaphors for what you all claim exists are as useless as Willie Lynch and other just-so stories.

Tom said it best upthread;

LEGAL ACTION IS WHAT WHITE PEOPLE THREATEN WHEN WE WANT TO FRIGHTEN EACH OTHER.

If you've got facts and can apply rules and legal precedent, go make a case and seek redress.

There is one good thing about the courts: when you're done talking something actually happens.

everything else is merely conversation - most of that - just repetitive, self-pitying, impotent, and stupid...,

Steven Augustine said...

"If you've got facts and can apply rules and legal precedent, go make a case and seek redress."

From the ultimately-objective, unquestionably unbiased Vulcan tribunal, one assumes.

CNu said...

Thurgood Marshall obtained legal redress when the deck was infinitely more stacked, did he not?

But then it's abundantly clear that today's ceaseless whiners are unfit to carry the jockstraps of their forbears.

Why so weak and impotent?

CNu said...

Nevermind, just stick with the video game metaphors and tireless whining about being marginalized as Willie Lynch believing conspiracy theorists...,

Anonymous said...

Lessee. When blacks talk about institutional racism they're "ceaseless whiners"; but when a white guy says the same thing you salute. You were the one citing this article:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

I assume you thought the point was valid, Kimosabe.

CNu said...

Why No-Mad Murphy, you madcap...., where you goin with that ain't-I'm-an-ass gum-whoopin?

My initial response to the article was entirely consistent with my response to it here today; my response to it was as follows; And the only thing that anyone should ever bother to do is play the game full-on, without complaint, and hope and pray that like-minded, better players will take them under their wing so that they can progress some levels and do likewise for up-and-coming players.

Through the lens of endlessly aggrieved jiggaboovision, logic, language, and values are always distorted beyond recognition. This also accounts for why you lack to the ganas to take your grievances to court.

Tom said...

Dude CNu you know--I hope you know-- how much I respect you.

But what's with the abusive language? WTF? Belatedly, WTF, bro?

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Let us not forget that U.S. schools are as segregated now (if not moreso) than they were post Brown v. Board. Legal decisions do not occur in a vacuum, nor do the Supremes have any real enforcement power.

Again, context matters.

Steven Augustine said...

"Thurgood Marshall obtained legal redress when the deck was infinitely more stacked, did he not?"

You and Logic Itself are not on good terms at the moment, dear Sir. Would you like us to Reductio ad Absurdum that Whopper for you?

"Plenty of Jews survived the Holocaust so what are you whining about?"

or

"How can the Pop Business be as difficult as you claim, milquetoast? Michael Jackson made it!"

Sidebar: ad hominems in place of a finely-crafted argument are dandy... if the ad hominems are not just lazy, borrowed, stanky-ass, dim-bulb animus. Have anything...?

CNu said...

But what's with the abusive language?

lol, I never second guess myself Tom.

Perhaps you can explain to me why a pack of pseudoanonymous cowards - whose psychological stench comes unattenuated right.through.the.digital.aether - deserves something better than naked contempt?

Once I decide I hate you, that's it, it's like gravity and there's not even the remotest possibility of a reprieve.

CNu said...

Sir. Would you like us to Reductio ad Absurdum that Whopper for you?

Please do Johnny Ringo.

{Just about anything would be an improvement over your pompous, gassy, emanations....,}

CNu said...

Let us not forget that U.S. schools are as segregated now (if not moreso) than they were post Brown v. Board. Legal decisions do not occur in a vacuum, nor do the Supremes have any real enforcement power.

and the hypersegregated urban schools are infinitely less effective at teaching children than they were in the 1950's notwithstanding the hundreds of billions of dollars thrown at them to "make them better".

pray tell, why these Jack and Jill 2nd/3rd line inheritors of the civil rights movement so ineffectual at discharging such a simple and basic responsibility?

why Becky and Connor don't want to go to school with Taequisha and Dravonte? hmmmm?!?!?!?!

Steven Augustine said...

"{Just about anything would be an improvement over your pompous, gassy, emanations....,}"

Attaboy, CnU! Gosh, that's a great little attempt at generating a witty diss, kid! Our celebrity judges are holding their cards up...!

Redd foxx---- "3.3"
Eddie "Rochester" Anderson---"2.7"
Bill Hicks----- "-27.0"
Moms Mabley----- "3.0"
Carrot Top----- "9.8"

Hey, it's not as though you actually had anything to say, right? Thanks for playing! Back to your Primitive, Negro-Despising Drawing board...!

CNu said...

rotflmbao...,

jiggaboos quick to peddle woof tickets bout what they fix'n to do..,

You and Logic Itself are not on good terms at the moment, dear Sir. Would you like us to Reductio ad Absurdum that Whopper for you?

but when everything's said and done, it's all just so much idle conversation...,

Steven Augustine said...

"but when everything's said and done, it's all just so much idle conversation...,"

Which is precisely why you don't bother wasting your precious time by commenting here, right? Gotcha.

CNu said...

lol, not only are you incapable of going beyond conspiracist drivel to marshal logic and data in support of your claims of illegal racial discrimination, you don't even have the chops to follow through on your very own threats of corrective logical instruction.

Trying to change the subject now and dodge my straightforward challenge - is not a good look..., but it's all you've got and pretty much to be expected when we get past the vox populi and down to particulars, isn't it?

Steven Augustine said...

I'm beginning to suspect you're CDV's sock-puppet. No commenter could be so consistently bizarre/strident/wrong and be indulged so patiently by the comment thread's host.

Either that or you're just some closeted (non-Negro) Nazi who comes here to shout "jigaboo" and "get away with it".

In any case: dull stuff.

"Trying to change the subject now and dodge my straightforward challenge..."

Uh, yeah. If *you* want to believe that racial bias/ discrimination are a figment of the Collective Negro Imagination, you're more than free to, kid, with my blessing. Why should I honestly give a damn about your mental state... ? Do you live on my street?

chaunceydevega said...

@Steve. Cnu is his own man. He is a force of nature, sometimes right, always entertaining, and on this issue the evidence is so overwhelming about structural racism I said my peace and moved on.

The sun rises in the East, institutional racism is as simple a fact as that. Either you believe the obvious, the data, and the empirical reality, or you do not.

CNu said...

lol,

I don't experience it CDV.

Consequently, I don't believe it.

You can't prove it to an evidentiary standard under law.

Becky and Connor don't want to go to school with Taequisha and Dravonte - and if you were a parent - you wouldn't either.

Sooo..., what's the point in repeating a staid and played mantra about something you no longer have the wherewithal to effect - still less change - in a country that has elected a black commander in chief?

{funny thing Doc, the parents at the now defunct African Centered Education Collegium didn't want their kids going to school with Taequisha and Dravonte either!}

now there go some intrapolitics you ought to become acquainted with and explore in detail.

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Now I know you are playing, what you are suggesting is the equivalence of denying gravity. Are you supernegro with transcendent mutant powers of some sort?

And yes, the law does acknowledge the existence of institutional discrimination both under the voting and civil rights acts.

also, the limited areas under which affirmative action and some version of compensatory hiring practices can be legally undertaken when corporations, public bodies, and others have been found to have systematically and institutionally discriminated against people of color, women, and other groups is an acknowledgement of the reality that is institutional discrimination.

Why are you so persistent and determined to be contrary for the sake of being difficult? Bored? There are other arguments you can take on with much more success. The evidence is solidly, in fact overwhelmingly against you on any argument that institutional racism does not exist. You are parodying some white privilege/white racism denying 101 stuff. For what reason I do not know. Perhaps you are playing some deep rhetorical game to see where it ends up...interesting.

CNu said...

And yes, the law does acknowledge the existence of institutional discrimination both under the voting and civil rights acts.

50 years ago - much has changed

the limited areas under which affirmative action and some version of compensatory hiring practices can be legally undertaken when corporations, public bodies, and others

40 years ago - much has changed

The evidence is solidly, in fact overwhelmingly against you on any argument that institutional racism does not exist.

Wrong - and THAT'S what accounts for the dearth of legal action.

You are parodying some white privilege/white racism denying 101 stuff. For what reason I do not know.

Because, there are scant few legal cases remaining to make, and, as you've noted previously, the anti-racist praxis is tiring, ineffectual, and has run its course.

Long overdue time now to get on with the business of intrapolitics.

Anonymous said...

@Tom
"Dude CNu you know--I hope you know-- how much I respect you."
I have no idea why.

@CNu

I know nothing of this No-Mad Murphy of whom you speak.

"Once I decide I hate you, that's it, it's like gravity"

LOL! Emotional Negro.

Steven Augustine said...

"Once I decide I hate you, that's it, it's like gravity"

Extra LOL. As if someone should actually, uh, you know, *give* two-thirds of a nano-shit...? Sounds like a "threat" from a "Glee" forum. Not quite Charles Murray is it? It's not even David Horowitz. Ann Coulter in "Black" Face? Getting warmer...

CNu said...

lol@jiggaboos orally fixated on my johnson...,

Tom said...

Ok,but Steven, what's 'post-Randian'?

To keep this on-topic maybe I should phrase that query as a bitter thrust, but I'm fresh out of bitter thrusts right now.

Steven Augustine said...

Tom, before I answer that question, how much do you know about Ayn Rand, the slavic huckster and writer of Darwinian pulp who inspired a generation or two of selfish bastards to glory in their ugliest attributes?

Tom said...

Steven, I was a devotee for several years! I caught the Rand virus from a high-school girlfriend. If only I had known more about protection back then! So I read Rand's novels and even tried a couple of her "philosophy" books. To a kid whose parents were paying for everything, Rand's philosophy of self-reliance made perfect sense!

Steven Augustine said...

So, you know the special place that Eugenics had in Ayn's heart, then...?

Tom said...

No I didn't ... Eugh? Eugenics?

Tom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steven Augustine said...

I think you must have missed Rand's point the first time around, Tom! Laugh

Tom said...

Probably. Luckily I started reading Chomsky a few years later and gradually recovered. I'm puzzled and embarrassed now that I was ever taken in, except that I really liked that girl.

Tom said...

Tho she turned out to be a psycho, actually, big surprise.

Steven Augustine said...

Oh, Tom, it gets worse. Randians try to refute the following, but they can't; in her own words, Rand admired a famous serial killer of the era... this excerpt covers it:

"Back in the late 1920s, as Ayn Rand was working out her philosophy, she became enthralled by a real-life American serial killer, William Edward Hickman, whose gruesome, sadistic dismemberment of 12-year-old girl named Marion Parker in 1927 shocked the nation. Rand filled her early notebooks with worshipful praise of Hickman. According to biographer Jennifer Burns, author of Goddess of the Market, Rand was so smitten by Hickman that she modeled her first literary creation — Danny Renahan, the protagonist of her unfinished first novel, The Little Street — on him.

What did Rand admire so much about Hickman? His sociopathic qualities: “Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should,” she wrote, gushing that Hickman had “no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel ‘other people.’”

This echoes almost word for word Rand’s later description of her character Howard Roark, the hero of her novel The Fountainhead: “He was born without the ability to consider others.”

(The Fountainhead is Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas’s favorite book — he even makes his clerks learn it.)"

The Clarence Thomas bit is where we come full circle on your original question (wink).

Tom said...

Yeek. That one I also wasn't aware of. Jeepers.

Steven Augustine said...

Tom:

There's usually a mask behind the mask behind the mask with "influential" figures who've been around longer than a few years; that's the archeological debris of discipleship. Now all Rand needs is for a team of the best writers in the Anglophone world to re-write her Holy Books in much better (or just plain unembarrassing) prose... to produce a KJV of the Fountainhead.

Tom said...

With Hickman as the new Christ, laying down moral principles for a good half of the USA already.