Thursday, December 29, 2011

Compassionate Conservatism? An Open Letter to Newt Gingrich From the Child of a Janitor



I write this for little girls and boys like her...

Newt Gingrich has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a horrible human being. Therefore, his repeated comments about the black poor, and “inner city” communities, where people “don’t have a work ethic” are not at all a surprise. Time has demonstrated that “compassionate conservatism,” an oxymoron if there ever was one, is not particularly kind, just, or humane.

As demonstrated by his Wednesday editorial on the website Human Events, Newt Gingrich is apparently wedded to the idea that young black and brown kids should have the “privilege” of becoming janitors in their schools in order to learn about the value of “hard work."

There are any number of problems with this argument. Primarily, Gingrich is recycling the ugly and deeply racist belief that black people are inherently lazy: poor children who don’t see people around them working apparently grow up to be lazy adults, who are on welfare, dependent on the state, and have no understanding of how to put in an honest day’s work. He gives no consideration to the stigma that child janitors would experience, and the taunting and bullying that would inevitably result from being one of the students who carries a pail, mop, or broom around their school.

Newt Gingrich is also blindly ignorant of the issues surrounding structural unemployment in poor inner city communities, and where it is not a deficit of work ethic or drive, but a lack of desperately wanted job opportunities—especially for young people—that drives urban poverty. Given the Right-wing’s assault on unions, and the social safety net, more broadly, Gingrich’s smearing of school janitors as an enriched and craven class of greedy public employees is just more red meat for an agenda that wants to destroy the American middle and working classes.

In all, Newt Gingrich is offering up a Dickensonian fantasy of workhouses in which African American wastrels and street urchins learn the value of hard work from benevolent white folks like him.

Of course, Newt Gingrich’s children, and those of the moneyed classes who he represents, would never be asked to pick up a mop and broom at their schools—as their kids’ responsibility is first and foremost to prepare and study for college, and the bright future which awaits them.

And I must wonder, what lessons have the children of the financier class, the trust fund baby and inherited money types who brought about the Great Recession, been taught about the value of hard work from observing the destructive behavior of their parents during this time of economic calamity?

Over the years, I have developed a pretty thick skin regarding these matters. However, there is something particular offensive about Newt Gingrich’s repeated insistence that poor black kids become janitors in order to learn about the merits of “hard work” that demands engagement. It would seem to his eyes that janitors are disposable people with easy jobs. Moreover, to him, a janitor's job is so simple that anyone, even an elementary or middle school student, could do it well.

As the refrain goes, the personal is political. I am the son of a janitor. I try not to break kayfabe, or to drop the mask too often. Nevertheless, sometimes it is necessary to speak up for yourself, as well as for the many other people who may not have either the privilege, or opportunity, to speak truth to power.

In that spirit, please take this as an open letter of sorts to Newt Gingrich (and the particular brand of compassionate conservatism that he represents).
****

My father was a hardworking man. He was not perfect. He took his job seriously and worked for many years as a janitor. He did this with pride, integrity, and self-respect. My father rarely took a sick day, and worked in this job for several decades, retiring only in his late 70s. Work meant a great deal to him, and he would eventually pass away about a year later. I warned my father that without a sense of purpose, and isolated from the many people he befriended at his job over the years, that he would not last long. I was (sadly) proven correct.

These are not details designed to elicit a tear; they are details of a full life, the human experience that stands behind words such as “janitor,” “teacher,” “unions,” and “working class.” These are perennially good titles, now transformed into slurs, by people like Newt Gingrich and his conservative brethren.

My father was a boss, a confidante to his coworkers, and advisor to the men and women he affectionately called his “crew.” His work was at times dangerous, involved long hours, and a good amount of responsibility.

No elementary, middle, or high school student could do my father’s job.

Growing up, I was embarrassed that my father was a “lowly” janitor. His job title was technically “senior maintenance supervisor.” I used that whenever I had the chance. When one’s friends are the children of doctors, lawyers, and white collar professionals, you learn to improvise.

There would be many awkward moments, when my father, the janitor, would have one of his three or so pagers go off in the company of my friends. We could be at a bowling tournament, a movie, or a birthday party, and inevitably one of those beepers would ring.

Those who did not know the facts of the situation would ask if “he was a doctor.” I would answer “no, my father just has an emergency that he has to take care of.”

Unlike in Newt Gingrich’s twisted dream, janitors and their families are not rich. My family had good Christmases, an occasional vacation, and nice Sunday meals. My father’s pay kept me in nice clothes, indulged my hobbies, and helped me (with some hefty student loans and grants) to go to college. My father’s work, in combination with my mother’s, kept us comfortable. We were not middle class, or even solidly working class by most measures. Somehow, we were okay.

A janitor’s job is also about personal relationships. I will not pretend that my father’s position as a janitor at a large Ivy League university was typical. He made sure that I met interesting people; I could take the day off of school, follow him around, and go to the library. He would leave me with different professors or graduate students so that I could talk to them about politics, history, or philosophy. Because my father worked there for many decades, he was part of the university community. My father took that role seriously.

For example, there were many occasions when he made sure that international students had a place to eat and go for the holidays (at times, this welcoming space was our home). My father, the janitor, was a union man and took great pride in how he always fought for the rights of the part-time staff—a group that he felt was always “getting a bum deal.”

When people needed jobs, oftentimes young men who were recently released from jail, or career ex-cons, they could come to my father. He would size them up. If they passed his personal test of being honest and direct about their situation(s), my father would go with them to human resources, vouch for their reliability, and put them on his “crew” so that they would learn how to do “right.”

My father also had some fun times at his job. He loved to talk about how, on one afternoon, he had to show a student from rural China how to use an American style toilet. My father joked that “the young man made it this far, I didn’t think using one of our toilets would be so complicated.”

There were sad times too.

On more than one occasion my father, a janitor, had to take up a collection for a student to send home to their family, to help them buy a ticket if there was an emergency, or to subsidize the funeral expenses for one of his crew, or the part-timers, who didn’t have his years of seniority, and pay.

No child could do that job.

My father only wanted me to get a job where my hands would be clean, and I would not have to pick up other people’s messes. I have, fingers crossed, more or less gotten that far. It has taken some years, and a bit of growth. But now, I am finally proud to be the child of a janitor. Those millions of us who were taken care of, provided for, and raised by working class folks such as maids, home health care workers, and janitors, have much to hold our heads high about.

These people are the real “job creators” in this country: they pay bills, provide for their families, and donate to churches, mosques, synagogues, and charitable organizations.

Working class people like my father help to sustain communities and neighborhoods.

Whenever Newt Gingrich and his brand of 1% percent plutocrat conservatives besmirch the working people of this country, people like us and our kin, we need to speak up. There is no shame in our lineage. And all of us need to say thanks, to acknowledge those janitors, maintenance people, and the like who work in our schools, office buildings, apartment complexes, and take care of our aged and sick parents and relatives. They deserve our respect; unfortunately, they rarely receive it from the American people.

Once more, I am proud to be a child of the working class. Are you?

72 comments:

CNu said...

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with what Gingrich wrote. There is soooo much wrong, however, with your screed CDV.

Gingrich is recycling the ugly and deeply racist belief that black people are inherently lazy: poor children who don’t see people around them working apparently grow up to be lazy adults, who are on welfare, dependent on the state, and have no understanding of how to put in an honest day’s work.

um.., have you spent any time in a K-12 facility in an urban school district over the past 20 years? Have you spent any time in a K-12 classroom, or, witnessed what transpires in the hallways and around the physical plant?

He gives no consideration to the stigma that child janitors would experience, and the taunting and bullying that would inevitably result from being one of the students who carries a pail, mop, or broom around their school.

Really?!?!?!?!

I had to do "scholarship" work after school and during the summer from 8th-12th grade. I learned how to tar and shingle roofs, build fences, rototill and replant fields - among other things - during this period.

Neither I nor any of the other kids who did this scholarship work were teased or bullied by anyone.

Newt Gingrich is also blindly ignorant of the issues surrounding structural unemployment in poor inner city communities, and where it is not a deficit of work ethic or drive, but a lack of desperately wanted job opportunities—especially for young people—that drives urban poverty.

um..., there's almost no votech anymore either, i.e., the lack of vocational educational opportunities is pervasive and very damning, as well.

In the last 15 years, only two graduates from the kansas city public schools successfully passed the basic competencies test administered by kansas city power and light for prospective entry into the lineman program - which if they survive three years - is a pathway to 6 figure income with a highschool degree. (there are other very profound issues here, like how the lineman guild very zealously and racially controls who gets in) but their is no shortage of white rural highschool graduates who've had a full votech set of background experiences who put in for this career path.

In all, Newt Gingrich is offering up a Dickensonian fantasy of workhouses in which African American wastrels and street urchins learn the value of hard work from benevolent white folks like him.

A role model is someone from whom you learn directly, over time, by imitation and gradual inculcation. Not some worrisome hierarchical make-work suit who puts in his/her two hours weekly in the hood.

Gingrich's suggestion not only makes economic and operational good sense, it's a sound suggestion for viable and beneficial experiences for young people who might not otherwise have these.

Your inability to see something so obvious, particularly after you've extolled all your father's many virtues, is a gigantic hole in your bucket...,

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. How did I know you would be so contrary? Tis that time of the year? Now I now you are playing around.

Gingrich's "solution" would actually make worse the very economic conditions he identifies as problematic. Plus, and you are funny now, that you would be in bed with Gingrich is another one of your tells on this issue. You are playing around to simply provoke.

CNu said...

No CDV, I'm keeping it 100%

http://subrealism.blogspot.com/2011/12/2011-financial-report-of-us-government.html#comment-396626357

because it's inconceivable to me that anyone could be as internally inconsistent as you've shown yourself to be in the course of a single essay.

If your father was as great a role model as what you've described, literally hundreds of kids could've benefitted by spending 10-15 hours every week imbibing the example he set on the job.

I'd be willing to bet there were few if anythings he couldn't personally do, up to and including the work of an electrician, a plumber, or even a boilermaker.

What subset of that extensive and valuable knowledge, skill, and ability did you acquire?

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu.

Great role model in some ways yes, other ways no. He was just a man.

An adult working as a janitor is one thing, to support a family, because of adult responsibilities, choices, etc. To ask, if not force a kid to do so is wrong. And Gingrich, knowing this man's political history, is basically suggesting that there be work houses for black people because we are naturally lazy. That would include people like you and me, and our children, real or imagined. Is that good policy to you? And given how sharp your analysis is, there is no way you missed out on that element of his insulting hypothesis.

I think every child should have a job in the summer, if their grades are good, they should have the option of working during the year. I support outreach programs, business and internship programs, and other ways to get young people into the labor market. To ask them to be janitors in their schools for pay--a job that is far more difficult than it sounds like--is not only wrong, it is foolish.

I learned quite a few things, I am not totally useless in a crisis. I may not be as deft as you--which is why we need you around--but I could surprise you.

As I said earlier Gingrich is indifferent to the structural mess in the labor market--well I will modify that a bit--his policies and those of other right-wing neoliberals helped to create the mess. It may very well be intentional.

CNu said...

And Gingrich, knowing this man's political history, is basically suggesting that there be work houses for black people because we are naturally lazy. That would include people like you and me, and our children, real or imagined. Is that good policy to you? And given how sharp your analysis is, there is no way you missed out on that element of his insulting hypothesis.

Given his political history?

um.., I didn't see it in his editorial, and I haven't heard it in his remarks. I see it projected loudly and clearly, however, in your own hyperbole, and, I see no indication that you have any current, up close and personal and on-the-ground knowledge of the prevailing conditions in urban public schools, neighborhoods, etc..,

I support outreach programs, business and internship programs, and other ways to get young people into the labor market.

Do you support them in theory or in practice? What do you personally teach kids (not undergraduates) to help them acquire marketable skills?

To ask them to be janitors in their schools for pay--a job that is far more difficult than it sounds like--is not only wrong, it is foolish.

lol, utter nonsense. I did janitorial work, hot tar roofing and construction, and worked in an industrial laundry, putting in at least 30 hours a week every week from the time I was 14 until I graduated from high school.

That which does not kill you makes you stronger...,

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Okay Conan, were you pushing the millstone around while Thulsa Doom was whipping you?

couldn't resist.

I know the sorry state of our schools Cnu. That needs to be fixed with proper budgeting and fixing the tax code so that rich and poor schools get the same monies. We ain't gonna fix the physical plant of MLK high with a bunch of kids working. Now, if we could fix the racism in the skilled trades and get more people of color in them I am down to get an apprentice program going.

Finding out about Newt's bs isn't hard. You know that google is your friend, and he is no friend of people like you or me.

I know what I do Cnu. I have volunteered, mentored, and worked with many "poor" and "low income" young people. What have you done? At times I think in your black survivalist hubris you forget that there are many ways to contribute. Yours is not the only way. We need all of us.

We can agree to disagree on that point.

I too worked, several jobs. But, that was not because I was made to do so, or the expectation was that poor kids work and "learn life lessons" at the urging of hypocrites like Gingrich. Or that, my working would eliminate the job of someone who was providing for his or her family--you forget that these folks are trying to destroy the middle class and want to drown the baby in the bathtub.

Are those positions you support?

Oh Crap said...

Once more, I am proud to be a child of the working class. Are you?

Rhetorical question, I guess :D

I, like most of my cousins in the region, grew up middle class and quite comfortable, materially. But all of our parents grew up some combination of working class, poor, dirt-poor, or just po', like my father. Disclaimer for those who don't know yet: these are parents via adoption. No, I do not know anything about my natural family.

My father was a very violent and abusive man. He also did everything right, e.g. joined the military, went to one of our Harvards on the GI bill, had a stint in pro sports, became a lifelong public school teacher, in addition to being ordained, and carrying the load of pastoring while also teaching full time.

My mother was an artist and vocalist. Restricted as a Black person even further by gender, her only real options for any kind of career were teaching and nursing. She chose the former, public, of course, which allowed her some creative outlet. She also ended up both a preacher, and a preacher's wife.

Not going to college was not an option for people in my mother's generation of cousins (of course not everyone went, wanted to, or was able to.) Among my father's siblings in the Blackbelt South (he was the youngest of 8 born in the very early 30s), going to school at all was practically a luxury. But for those that had the opportunity -- people still don't understand this -- it was a moral imperative to do so. She ended up at Wilberforce, and "State".

Not just for yourself, but for the race. Your talents are not your own. Your intellect is not your own. Not even your words are your own -- they belong to the people who produced you and those who will come after you. This, we call, being a "race person".

-more-

Oh Crap said...

-cont'd-



As f'ed up, colorstruck, and "Talented Tenth" as many of the subplots of Scott Joplin's Treemonisha (1910/1972) may be, every Black person my age and older understands it. You do not go to school for your own benefit. The people you come from gave you this opportunity. Do not squander it, as it doesn't belong to you, anyway.

I grew up a grad school kid -- parents either in some form of seminary or other kind of advanced degree. My father chose the best one in the area, and ended up taking church history courses from this guy, who kept making the news around leftyprog circles a couple months back.

So when I hear white confederates lecture some of the hardest working people on earth about the value of education or "hard work", as if they'd know anything about it themselves, since they think of "value" only in terms of the acquisition of money and objects, they just get dismissed without the effort of an argument.

Newt and his gaggle of seething apologists can just go fuck right off with that stupid shit.

CNu said...

I know the sorry state of our schools Cnu. That needs to be fixed with proper budgeting and fixing the tax code so that rich and poor schools get the same monies. We ain't gonna fix the physical plant of M L K high with a bunch of kids working. Now, if we could fix the racism in the skilled trades and get more people of color in them I am down to get an apprentice program going.

lol, money has nothing whatsoever to do with it, rather, operational and administrative competence, people with genuine knowledge, skill, ability, and heart need to be running the failing public school districts, rather than the types of economic hit men I attempted to alert you to going from KC to Detroit several months ago.

Finding out about Newt's bs isn't hard. You know that google is your friend, and he is no friend of people like you or me.

Ron Paul's not my friend either, but he's demonstrated exponentially greater administrative courage than that nutless wonder you politicized Chicago gimps show unswerving support for!!!

I know what I do Cnu. I have volunteered, mentored, and worked with many "poor" and "low income" young people. What have you done?

I've been a volunteer instructor at the Dubois Learning Center for the past 7 years teaching open source technology courses and digital entrepreneurship. Prior to and in parallel with that, I've taught basic reading for the past 23 years since I was 25 years old.

Right now, I work on one-to-one distance learning technology for safe schools violators who've been absolutely prohibited from setting foot on public school premises, and this year alone, I've steered over $500,000 worth of surplus federal information systems technology into the hands of needy schools and education institutions.

Starting week after next, I'll be in the vanguard of efforts to repurpose the Bannister Federal Complex to function as a multi-District data center and center for advanced professional studies, i.e., a mecca for direct and distance STEM education.

At times I think in your black survivalist hubris you forget that there are many ways to contribute. Yours is not the only way. We need all of us.

lol, you poodles crack me up.

Having worked in the trenches for as long as I have, I'm extremely hard-pressed to think of a single meaningful contribution by a single 2nd/3rd line inheritor during the entire span of my volunteer instruction and technology distribution.

Nah, aside from skinning and grinning, the muhphuggin camp you shill for has proven itself essentially and congenitally useless!!

I too worked, several jobs. But, that was not because I was made to do so, or the expectation was that poor kids work and "learn life lessons" at the urging of hypocrites like Gingrich.

It should be at the urging of black men in the hood or of black political "leadership", but these jiggaboos know that tough love means no re-election and they put a higher premium on maintaining their 6 figure position in elective office rather than taking people through the hard twists and turns of the System D railroad.

Or that, my working would eliminate the job of someone who was providing for his or her family--you forget that these folks are trying to destroy the middle class and want to drown baby in the bathtub.

There are 75 million Americans in the surplus labor value pool. Only a moron pretends that such an unsustainable mass is entitled to any set level of remuneration given that these people don't work in the truly productive sectors of the economy (food/energy/manufacturing) and are instead already obsolete members of the food-powered make-work hierarchy!

Are those positions you support?

I support reestablishment of corporal punishment in schools and of children working in schools and taking ownership of the state of the physical plant which they occupy and on which their futures depend.

CNu said...

I know what I do Cnu. I have volunteered, mentored, and worked with many "poor" and "low income" young people. What have you done?

Does racism chasing have curricular cachet in the hood? Have you spawned a tiny army of Kai Davis's running they moufs? http://youtu.be/_UISd1Loam8

talkin loud and sayin nuthin....,

CNu said...

Disclaimer for those who don't know yet: these are parents via adoption. No, I do not know anything about my natural family....every Black person my age and older understands it. You do not go to school for your own benefit. The people you come from gave you this opportunity. Do not squander it, as it doesn't belong to you, anyway.

http://youtu.be/uic29IVePW4

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. We agree on much. And I have to love this too:

"Nah, aside from skinning and grinning, the muhphuggin camp you shill for has proven itself essentially and congenitally useless!!"

You need to make t-shirts.

Poodles? more of a mutt who is deceptively nice and supportive until he turns on those who he has decided are not deserving.

You have done alot. Kudos. I mean that. Now, do you have a non-for profit or foundation or group that we can work with? I would sign up.

Oh Crap said...

I support reestablishment of corporal punishment in schools and of children working in schools and taking ownership of the state of the physical plant which they occupy and on which their futures depend.

Really?

So when all the white children are in private attachment-parenting schools that have a cultural taboo against even saying the word "no" to a child, and the bulk of our children are getting their asses beat by the state, what good will that do?

Especially as those brats are going to be staffing the nursing homes we are all going to be in, soon.

I shudder to think about any endeavor those teeming brats work in or try to manage, when they finally become adults.

and of children working in schools

Not even a seething bigot like Newt really means that...he's just yanking your chain.


and taking ownership of the state of the physical plant which they occupy and on which their futures depend

What children are occupying any physical plants?

Besides plants owned by foreign countries, what plants are left in America?

CNu said...

Really?

So when all the white children are in private attachment-parenting schools that have a cultural taboo against even saying the word "no" to a child, and the bulk of our children are getting their asses beat by the state, what good will that do?


Uh, you haven't seen an everyday school teacher, right minded, and subject matter competent, subjected to the quotidian abuses that contemporary adolescents are permitted to dispense, have you?


Especially as those brats are going to be staffing the nursing homes we are all going to be in, soon.

I shudder to think about any endeavor those teeming brats work in or try to manage, when they finally become adults.


lol, before you start worrying about whether you can look forward to a kind and gentle sponge bath, I speck you have a decade or two of working up to running two miles full-out so that you can say you've been fully alive!

What children are occupying any physical plants?

physical plant = school building

sheeeeiiiiittt...., we closed 28 perfectly functional school buildings last year with no plan whatsoever for their liquidation or repurposing.

Do you have any idea how many kids in urban public school systems are literally homeless?

Oh Crap said...

Do you have any idea how many kids in urban public school systems are literally homeless?

I'm sure this will surprise you but in fact, I do, since I live in a city with a very high rate of homelessness. Every so often, the topic of homeless students actually makes the news, here.

BTW, since we're now trotting out homelessness and waving it around, ever been homeless yourself?

Uh, you haven't seen an everyday school teacher, right minded, and subject matter competent, subjected to the quotidian abuses that contemporary adolescents are permitted to dispense, have you?

Sorry, but I don't want any pretexts for state actors taking out their nasty aggressions on school children. People who desire corporal punishment are certainly free to go to kink.com and fantasize away about it, though.

Yours is the same mentality that says taking prayer out of schools landed public school where they are, now.

I don't buy that claptrap, either.

CNu said...

Every so often, the topic of homeless students actually makes the news, here.

Is progressivism or afrodemic "ism" period, typified by lack of direct knowledge or experience accompanied by strong opinion formation and expression?

BTW, since we're now trotting out homelessness and waving it around, ever been homeless yourself?

lol, stop playing.

People would die before I, or anyone I am responsible for, suffered indignity, much less privation.

Sorry, but I don't want any pretexts for state actors taking out their nasty aggressions on school children. People who desire corporal punishment are certainly free to go to kink.com and fantasize away about it, though.

Is progressivism or afrodemic "ism" period, typified by a tendency to projectively sexualize any and everything with which it disagrees?

Yours is the same mentality that says taking prayer out of schools landed public school where they are, now.

Yours is the voice of "don't know wtf you're talking about".

You and CDV share in common with Newt a complete lack of direct recent experience with kids in urban public school systems, yet this lack of first hand knowledge doesn't deter you from forming and expressing strong opinions.

It would do you a world of good to attempt to conduct classes at an urban middle-school or high school with the current tools available for maintaining safety and order.

Which brings us back full circle to the topic at hand. It would be very useful for kids to begin working in and around their school physical plants and acquiring some semblance of "ownership" for those buildings and what transpires therein.

Oh Crap said...

lol, stop playing.

People would die before I, or anyone I am responsible for, suffered indignity, much less privation.


A lot you know about homeless youth, especially those who get kicked out of the house by parents and guardians.

I see it doesn't stop you from expressing strong opinions about the topic, though.

BTW, I haven't been a "progressive" in about 15 years. It's the "progressive" camp doing like you, demanding a president run around with his testicles out for you to view them, and touting the ideas of confederate bigots like Newt and Ron Paul as some kind of real options.

I've never been an "ism" afrodemic either, except in your unmedicated fantasies.

As for the rest of that repetitious Black authenticity drivel of yours, my girl Judy Garland has your number.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKhLGsoktDM

Anonymous said...

CNu
Newt doesn't care about the kids. This would remove another blue collar job that a person without a college education could move up in. Garbage men/Street cleaners/Factory Works were all jobs that paid well with years of hard work. Giving this work to the kids would save the schools on benefits that are paid out to that full time employee. This is class warfare cuts that would hurt the very group you claim need to work harder. You want us to work harder for less. Newt has you by the balls

CNu said...

It's the "progressive" camp doing like you, demanding a president run around with his testicles out for you to view them, and touting the ideas of confederate bigots like Newt and Ron Paul as some kind of real options.

As for the rest of that repetitious Black authenticity drivel of yours, my girl Judy Garland has your number.


testicles, black authenticity, and Judy Garland all in one fell swoop - and this jiggabess got the nerve to talk about other folks being "unmedicated"? rotflmbao...,

OC - I work on one-to-one computing, synchronous and asynchronous distance learning PRECISELY FOR kids who are either in alternative school settings and/or aren't allowed in schools because they're safe schools violators. Not only do I do the end-to-end technology architectures for these programs, i.e., from content source down to end-point in the child's hands - I also work on the content and curriculum (including vocational curriculum and online tutorial assistance) being presented.

Other than a strong opinion, what exactly again are your credentials for speaking on this subject?

CNu said...

This would remove another blue collar job that a person without a college education could move up in. Garbage men/Street cleaners/Factory Works were all jobs that paid well with years of hard work.

Anonymous - In a contracting economy, food-powered make-work is unsustainable and will be snuffed out no matter what. As I said upthread, 28 buildings were added to the roster of dozens of already closed buildings in the past 18 months, and NOBODY has even figured out what to do with these buildings (OPPORTUNITY) - but the very last thing in the world I or anyone else should be concerned about is whether there's a well-paid make-work job for somebody who failed to maximize their own educational opportunities.

As far as I'm concerned, kids need to be exposed to hard work and strong work ethics (as I was) and if one of the only places available to them to obtain this exposure is at their schools, then so be it. Newt's proposal makes perfect sense to me.

Oh Crap said...

@CNu


OC - I work on one-to-one computing, synchronous and asynchronous distance learning PRECISELY FOR kids who are either in alternative school settings and/or aren't allowed in schools because they're safe schools violators. Not only do I do the end-to-end technology architectures for these programs, i.e., from content source down to end-point in the child's hands - I also work on the content and curriculum (including vocational curriculum and online tutorial assistance) being presented.


Of course you do!

Anybody can brag about their alleged credentials, on the internet.

testicles

Have you noticed -- every time you get really agitated or frustrated, your posts reveal a fixation on male genitalia, be they those of your opponent, or just in general. Every time, never fails; it's predictable as the sunrise.

I think it's funny, so don't fault me for noticing you and white progs have that in common.

Thrasher said...

Often I enjoy observing from the sidelines it is revealing on so many levels in the case of CNu his constant need to validate and offer proof about his IT credentials and what he does is besides boring as a fuck confirms my premise about him truly being a hollow and shallow vessel who at his core is a man with a very low self esteem..And yes he has dick issues....lol,lol,lol

What a yahoo CNu is...lol,lol,lol

Thrasher said...

Newt has no honest interest in the welfare or futures of poor urban youth his comments were a petty attempt to incite his conservative followers by demonizing the offspring of the urban poor..

No one argues about the real issues regarding the obstacles and challenges the urban poor face yet instead of offering up tangible options and ideas Newt invokes the 'race card'

People like CNu and others will always defend people like Newt, Paul,and others it serves thier ego to step on the others shortcomings..It elevates CNu to step on others while at the same time lecturing to us about all the high tech deeds he is performing..

The majority of WARN posters also engaged , assist, volunteer, role model , mentor etc without bragging of course like CNu

CNu said...

quoth OC; BTW, I haven't been a "progressive" in about 15 years. It's the "progressive" camp doing like you, demanding a president run around with his testicles out for you to view them, and touting the ideas of confederate bigots like Newt and Ron Paul as some kind of real options.

rotflmbao...,

YOU brought em up beezy!!!

Have you noticed -- every time you get really agitated or frustrated, your posts reveal a fixation on male genitalia, be they those of your opponent, or just in general. Every time, never fails; it's predictable as the sunrise. I think it's funny, so don't fault me for noticing you and white progs have that in common.

I believe this is endgame OC.

Not only do you not know what you're talking about, but you can't even keep track of your own delusional projections.

Is this dishonesty, incompetence, or both?

Oh Crap said...

YOU brought em up beezy!!!


Now don't go getting distracted by the topic of male genitalia, C-man.

In your world, it can't possibly be projection on my part, since I don't like men at all, remember?

Anyway, the main point/general idea is, there's no reason to trust either you, nomad, white progs, or Newt Gingrich on the topic of what ails us.

AFAIC, you dorks are all on the same dining room table continuum.

CNu said...

This morning is not the first time you've been caught in a bald-faced lie OC.

You think your hypeman - the resident mensroom attendant jiggaboo - will kick up enough dust with his antics to distract folks from just how badly you've played yourself?

Oh Crap said...

Rotfl what lies have I told? Now's your big opportunity to relive that fantasy of having made OC to straighten up and fly right, in public, in front of everyone, so please - don't hesitate!

the resident mensroom attendant jiggaboo

e_e

Uh-huh. How much longer must we wait until you inform us he's interested in yours or some other man's genitals?

You always do, never fails. So do commence with the ritual at your leisure. I'm waiting.

Thrasher said...

Interesting how CNu always seeks to insert me as a deflective device when OC is kicking his arse..

What is more important of course is what all of us can do to influence and augment the lives of the poor I don't think Newt and his ilk really care about this objective...

I respect CNu's efforts but I don't have to worship Newt or beatdown the poor as well..

CNu said...

Rotfl what lies have I told?

Your whopper du jour is that I - rather than you - brought up the subject that seems nearest and dearest to your mouth.

CNu said...

Anyway, the main point/general idea is, there's no reason to trust either you, nomad, white progs, or Newt Gingrich on the topic of what ails us.

No.

Here's the bottomline.

40 years of egregious 2nd and 3rd line inheritor mismanagement of urban public school systems have left these in such a drastically degenerate state, that they make prime targets for systematic rototill and replant.

Since you incompetents have no idea what an urban public school retooling needs to entail, have not proffered any solutions approaches, and have nothing whatsoever of value to contribute to the effort or the discussion, it's long overdue time for all of you to STFU and sit down.

Or, carry on with your worthless jiggaboo sniping and antics - because that's all you got...,

Johan Meyer said...

@CNu
While I am uncomfortable with your terminology (I'm not from USA, but what I understand from the terminology you use is unpleasant), I am very amused at the reaction to your basically socialist proposal, namely that those who work the plant (means of production) should own it (and vice-versa). Deskilled people are always repulsive, yet they cannot understand why most people avoid them. Actually, most of the university educated are similarly deskilled - I salute your STEM type efforts, but I'd recommend that you send those under your supervision to get some trade-school schooling prior to doing STEM in a university - too many engineers belong in padded rooms where they cannot hurt themselves - they cannot do anything practical. The rich and the poor deskilled (irrespective of education) are generally scorned.

The other amusing thing is the hyperfocus on Ginrich's audience's emotional proclivities, instead of the opportunities that such offer given Ginrich's recent statement.

Thrasher said...

@CNu,

So your basic remote learning IT project has saved the world..WTF..

Once unlike you CNu I was a candidate for school board and I would encounter the same type of anal people like you indicting and beating down entire school districts( Black kids) while ignoring the inflated academic outcomes of private and suburban school districts..

You constantly whine about the failures of previous generational leadership without an acknowledgement of other forces which impacted these 2nd and 3rd interests just confirms how myopic and hollow your analysis often is..

You probably supported the insane
"Race to the Top" nonsense that was dumped on school districts because it provided a basis to terminate educators and close schools based upon some tired testing metrics etc..

Nothing you have offered up on WARN really at the end of day is threshold nor a game changer..You are just an angry IT person who operates behind a costume full of chatter and nothing more..

My activism, parenting and mentoring no doubt has done more than any of your alleged one on one IT savior projects....Your need to inflate yourself in here reveals a lot about how shallow your claims are...Of course you do post under an alias so proof and authentication is always a problem and loop hole for you to escape to..

Johan Meyer said...

@Thrasher
Did he claim to save the world?

While I agree with you about the original cause of the problems - they are showing up elsewhere now - he correctly pointed out that rural white schools don't have those problems as badly, in healthy part because they avoided deskilling - the success for whites under New Deal (and other social democratic programs elsewhere) relied on teaching manual skills to the deskilled (full disclosure: my grandfather worked on building a national highway in pre-apartheid South Africa, then joined a paramilitary - Pirow's army (then prime minister's little project to keep other politicians and the radical labour movements in line) - much like Iran's revolutionary guards, prior to getting a state job). Every rebellion relies on skilled people. Notice that skilled people, largely rural white, manage to force the social programs/government to keep on funding them.

I'll give you another example. One of Napoleon's fighters (I'm not sure what title he held under the French) in Haiti, Jean-Jacques Dessalines. He fought both for the Spanish and the French, and studied their tactics, then turned their tactics (and understanding of those tactics' weaknesses) against them.

I think that you want to save everything, and because of that, you save nothing. Start choosing your battles and winning. It is a class war, and in wars many people lose.

Thrasher said...

Meyer,

Tto candid sorry but I don't observe how your examples validate anything nor refute my arguments..

Rural whites 'hue' offered them continued funding it had little to do with their skill set perhaps now that you are in America it would help your analysis is here to study american history, labor history Black history as well as the objectives of the GI Bill etc...

BTW do you have any idea what my talking points are? Your last point infers that I want to "save everything"??

Please articulate that charge more against me..I don't engaged in wars of any sort nor do I view the reality unfolding in America as a 'class war"..

Welcome to WARN just be mindful it is not a walk in the park we demand substantive discourse..

Johan Meyer said...

@Thrasher
My impression is that you (majority of politically active urban US blacks) want to 'save everything' (make an effort to save each job - much like the trade unions in the early phases of the neoliberal onslaught) - feel free to disabuse me of this notion.

If their skin tone were sufficient (I'm not denying its significance, only its sufficiency), deskilled poorer whites would be doing much greater.

If you don't see what is happening in the US as a class war (including, but not limited, to substantial impoverishment of a plurality if not majority of the populace; continuing assault by state actors, often in the open pay of the wealthy, against the poor - note, I'm not denying the ethnic composition of the poor; all but state-sanctioned wage theft; enslavement of the poor, e.g. prison labour; deindustrialization of the the country to undermine wages and strengthen profits), may I ask how you would describe the present unfolding reality of USA?

CNu said...

Deskilled people are always repulsive, yet they cannot understand why most people avoid them. Actually, most of the university educated are similarly deskilled

My man...,

You just said a mouthful and then some.

Deskilled folks incessantly hollaring about racism, seemingly unaware of the contraction (Greatest Depression) unfolding all around them - are unfamiliar with the genuine vocational struggles of those who came before them - and imagine that they can cling to an unsustainable standard of food-powered make-work consumption that is falling all to pieces worldwide.

I salute your STEM type efforts, but I'd recommend that you send those under your supervision to get some trade-school schooling prior to doing STEM in a university - too many engineers belong in padded rooms where they cannot hurt themselves - they cannot do anything practical.

This is the model we're trying to spin up at the old Bannister Federal Complex, bbut in addition to the two years of OJT for highschool juniors and seniors, we're also looking to implement vocational lines in urban agriculture and energy efficiency. There is a vast amount of skilled work to be done helping Americans power down from our average per capita energy consumption of 12,000 kilowatt hours, to something closer to what the Swiss are seeking to accomplish.

The rich and the poor deskilled (irrespective of education) are generally scorned.

The deskilled just across the border are caught up in a very ugly civil war that will inevitably erupt in the U.S., as well. There are those who would argue that we're already struggling under the burden of an insufferable los ni ni's problem here in Kansas City.

Johan Meyer said...

I'm busy reading your references, but I'll tell you something - white deskilled people have the same nasty habits (I'm your local nasty Afrikaner ex pat... so I get to meet lots of Canadian whites who give very frank discussions...)

Racism and other discriminations (e.g. I'm a prairie urban white trash, etc.) become an excuse not to strive, and therein to my thought lies the problem. If half the effort were put by those quick to complain about racism etc. to actually address among themselves the cultural and structural effects of racism (and/or other discriminations), something might happen. Instead, the young take the easy option: either the oil rigs, or the drug trade - Saskatoon - my city - white & aboriginal; Winnipeg (and Fort McMurray), Somali; Edmonton - Vietnamese - and these are merely the controlling ethnicities - everyone else has some stake. I'd imagine state-side is the same. And some are foolish enough to do arts degrees and end up in the make work sector (dishes/pizza delivery). Saddening, actually.

Johan Meyer said...

@CNu
Read your references - I find myself in complete agreement.

Oh Crap said...

@CNu

it's long overdue time for all of you to STFU and sit down.

But see, that's just not gonna happen, ever.

None of your OCD-induced tantrums will ever silence anyone here. You've got something you're desperate to prove; I understand that. But you've picked the wrong bunch to make into your personal red herrings.

One would think you'd have understood that by now, but whatever.

Oh Crap said...

@Johan Meyer Start choosing your battles and winning. It is a class war, and in wars many people lose.

lmao, oh God..

Thrasher said...

@johan
I never abuse so I will dispose of your arguments without any trauma you post like a clinical academic type that has no first hand interactions with real American blacks urban or rural
Your contention about ritual should hold true for rural blacks but your cultural blind spot always ignores race that is a classic shortcoming if sterile white intellectuals of course ..

To your question the current reality in my country is more complex than your obsolete class dogma ...What I observe unfolding in my nation is a devolution of humanity at every bandwidth ...

I will expand more later

CNu said...

the bathroom attendant is a couple of 4 packs into the Old English...,

CNu said...

If you don't see what is happening in the US as a class war (including, but not limited, to substantial impoverishment of a plurality if not majority of the populace; continuing assault by state actors, often in the open pay of the wealthy, against the poor - note, I'm not denying the ethnic composition of the poor; all but state-sanctioned wage theft; enslavement of the poor, e.g. prison labour; deindustrialization of the the country to undermine wages and strengthen profits), may I ask how you would describe the present unfolding reality of USA?

Johan, this assemblage only knows the hammer of race, consequently, any and all problems that can't be framed as racial nails - simply don't compute...,

{while I don't recommend that you take it up yourself, I hope it's clearer now why I've adopted my comforting little unpleasant term of endearment as shorthand for these anosognosiac ass-clowns?}

Thrasher said...

@johan

Enough of the woeful pitiful white male bit it is not required here @ WARN just bring your best talking points we don't define whites like America does urban black folks like you did us....

Thrasher said...

CNu

There you go again pandering to any white person in the area ...You really are pitiful..

Thrasher said...

CNu aka Atari Ping Pong IT Tech..

We are waiting for you to dominate this forum with your brilliant cutting edge IT mindset yet for many moons it here all I have observed is you chasing around our weather ballons of logic and wit...lol,lol,lol

One more before end of the year..I can stomach your phony science/math/technical driven chatter..lol,lol,lol

Johan Meyer said...

@CNu
Na wow. I always had the impression that such were white supremacists pretending to be black to stir up resentment - in fact, I'm still not completely disabused with this example.

The other thing I find strange is that these types never seem to act on their analyses - contrast with the Panthers (also black separatist) and Steve Biko (not quite, but in many respects close), consequently their (the shouters here) ideas are never moulded by sizing up with reality. (But then, the shouters aren't black separatists either - they want to shout abuse - revenge? Making up for not being involved in substantial activism, but instead running as a local politician?)

But someone once said that the bitterness in academia is so high because the stakes are so low. Anyhow, Happy new year!

@Thrasher
So when will you address the possibilities of teaching practical skills?

And to what were you referring with your phrase, "woeful pitiful white male bit"? That I referred to whining white males, and identified them as such? I'm confused, actually.

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. You have been very very touchy and grumpy lately. Why the upset, I am going to keep asking. Is it disgust? A sense that you are doing much to help young and under-resourced kids and are not getting any support? Please, give us some specifics that we can do to help out. I mean that seriously.

You wrote:

"Johan, this assemblage only knows the hammer of race, consequently, any and all problems that can't be framed as racial nails - simply don't compute...,

{while I don't recommend that you take it up yourself, I hope it's clearer now why I've adopted my comforting little unpleasant term of endearment as shorthand for these anosognosiac ass-clowns?}"

Ass clown? And I hope you would have figured out that I know a bit than just "racism chasing" and that we are not an "assemblage" of sorts. Reflexively, and using your logic, what is your "assemblage" Ron Paul Gingrich post-futurist survivalists? Mad Max wannabe's? Negroes with Guns who make strategic alliances with skinheads and the black helicopter crowd?

When you are so reductionist it does not advance the conversation--especially when you have a good amount of expertise to offer first as a bibliographer, as a survivalist, and an IT professional.

In your various non-profit ventures do you communicate the same contempt for those black folks with whom you disagree? We are all on the same team.

Or maybe not?

I like "jigaboo" as an insult, but can you mix it up with a moon cricket or watermelon eater every so often?

Now can you and Thrasher and Oh Crap give each other a nice group hug?

CNu said...

You have been very very touchy and grumpy lately. Why the upset, I am going to keep asking. Is it disgust? A sense that you are doing much to help young and under-resourced kids and are not getting any support? Please, give us some specifics that we can do to help out. I mean that seriously.

Why you frontin CDV?

I asked you for very specific help for under-resourced kids in Michigan and heard the watermelon eating moon-cricket chorus..., (asked a half-dozen of your confederates around about the same time, and the only one I even got a response from was Lester Spence - of course nothing happened, but....,) I concluded then and there that fear of possible institutional blowback accounted for the afrodemic cowardice.

And I hope you would have figured out that I know a bit than just "racism chasing" and that we are not an "assemblage" of sorts.

lol, when you gonna add the bathroom attendant to your blogroll brah?

Reflexively, and using your logic, what is your "assemblage"

scroll down the right side of my blog...,

In your various non-profit ventures do you communicate the same contempt for those black folks with whom you disagree?

Yes actually. This year I made a straight up, simple, and plain proffer to all parties - with no compromises, no dilutions, and no exceptions.

My work with the CAPS-East folk centered on the Bannister Federal complex is the upshot of keeping it 100%. I couldn't ask for anything more.

The jiggaboo consortium wanted entirely too much skinnin and grinnin and hand-holding. phukkem.

They'll be putting on their little event in a couple weeks, (don't even have a website), and, the ones with whom I've had the longest and closest affiliation, have a dying data center costing them $50K a year, derive no benefit whatsoever from it, and have been blowing up the phones begging a brother to help them out. phukkem too.

We are all on the same team.

Help me out here CDV. How exactly do our interests converge?

Now can you and Thrasher and Oh Crap give each other a nice group hug?

uh...., I'ma leave Thrasher and Oh Crap hugging one another for dear life out in the watermelon patch....,

CNu said...

The other thing I find strange is that these types never seem to act on their analyses - contrast with the Panthers (also black separatist) and Steve Biko (not quite, but in many respects close), consequently their (the shouters here) ideas are never moulded by sizing up with reality. (But then, the shouters aren't black separatists either - they want to shout abuse - revenge? Making up for not being involved in substantial activism, but instead running as a local politician?)

not.being.involved.in.anything.substantial perfectly sizes it up.

I have crystallized a merciless indictment of what I refer to as 2nd and 3rd line inheritors of the civil rights movement, lawyers, preachers, politicians, "activists", pundits, and afrodemics - all of whom were encouraged and amply funded as part of a diabolically successful anti-Black counterinsurgency - forty years into this - we have a mass that's dumber and more useless than a bag of hammers....,


But someone once said that the bitterness in academia is so high because the stakes are so low.

The stakes are actually very, very high at this moment in time, but the bag of hammers is the very, very last to comprehend what's around that signpost up ahead.

Anyhow, Happy new year!

And to you brother.

Don't be a stranger and don't let the shouters deter you in any form or fashion in these or any other precincts that stand to benefit from the enriched perspective you have to offer.

Thrasher said...

@Johan,

I have no idea what you are posting about now??

BTW I have never posted that practical skills don't matter..

Thrasher said...

CD,

I am looking forward to CNu showering me with the same gloring words he posted for you..

Should I hold my breath??

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. No one can accuse you of being vague or changing the tune to fit the audience. A dangerous game; I salute you for it.

"Why you frontin CDV?

I asked you for very specific help for under-resourced kids in Michigan and heard the watermelon eating moon-cricket chorus..., (asked a half-dozen of your confederates around about the same time, and the only one I even got a response from was Lester Spence - of course nothing happened, but....,) I concluded then and there that fear of possible institutional blowback accounted for the afrodemic cowardice."

I vaguely remember the email, got lost with other things. My apologies.

But, why do you have a litmus test, one offer upon which you decided upon a conclusion (one you have already reached) about those "surplus" "blackademics."

Maybe folks were busy, maybe not interested in your project at the time, maybe don't have the resources or expertise? Nothing personal. It happens.

Your one and out strike rule is going to hurt your project in the long run. Your tone and brand which I find fun, may also not do much to entice folks to work on a project with you. Just being honest.

Who wants to collaborate w. someone who holds them and their work in contempt?

CNu said...

Your one and out strike rule is going to hurt your project in the long run. Your tone and brand which I find fun, may also not do much to entice folks to work on a project with you. Just being honest.

Who wants to collaborate w. someone who holds them and their work in contempt?


lol, inevitability is on my side.

that's a term that should be uppermost in every "educator's" thoughts right about now - along with a related term disintermediation.

Oh Crap said...

9_9

Who doesn't love white immigrants who come here and then instruct us on how to be Succesful Negroes?!

Say, Johan, if you find your wares consistently rejected around here, consider that We Black Recalcitrants™ have become experts at rejecting unsolicited advice from ignorant people who make assumptions prior to speaking.

Oh Crap said...

@CDV

Who wants to collaborate w. someone who holds them and their work in contempt?

Being the resident contrarian is cute, and trendy.

Thrasher said...

I have no problem with contrarians when they offer provide value what is always present in CNu's contributions is the lack of viable substantive material..

CNu's worth is discounted by his underdeveloped persona which makes his presentations easy to be dismissed and ignored..

What I have enjoyed here @ WARN is the comments and contributions of posters operate in real time and are currency to leverage ..It does bother me than even in a Black forum one must confront discord instead of possibilities and opportunties..

CNu is of course like many on this site brilliant and noteworthy but these features along don't produce benefits and outcomes that matter if they framed in contempt and at the service of those who don't seek to advance our best interests..

I am committed in the new year to limit those forces, interests, issues and of course people who do not add value to my enterprises...

I will always of course reserve the right to self defense, opinion and my persona to alter the discourse and arc of the universe....just saying:-)

fred c said...

I'm biting my tongue here, but maybe I could offer a couple of gentle observations without offense:

1. One can no more decide to become an engineer (i.e. train for it) than one can decide to become a concert pianist. It requires a certain talent to begin with, and without the talent the enterprise will fail (not singling out any group here as not being capable of doing engineering. It's not for everybody, certainly I couldn't have done it myself);

2. That something has worked very well for a particular individual does not make it a rule for general application; and

3. Those who perform the clean-up jobs around us, or any menial unskilled labor jobs, deserve our respect as much as any high-education, skilled workers or professionals. If a grown man or woman works hard to support themselves and their dependents, at any point in the employment spectrum, is it not admirable? The Professor did a fine job of stating this one, "[t]hey deserve our respect." It bears repeating though, in light of the emphasis herein on higher level employment.

Ms. Ann G. Myma said...

Perhaps Newton Leroy has to demean the life and character of African American children-so he won't be reminded of the circumstances around his own birth.

It appears that the only reason Newton Leroy's parents married was to prevent the little scamp from being born a bastard. His 16 year-old mother, with bun in oven, married 19 year-old Newton Searles McPherson. As soon as Baby Newton Leroy was 3 days old, the drunken father Newton abused his wife,and left.


It is reported that Kathleen reared Newton Leroy on her own, until she met Newton Leroy's stepfather, Robert Gingrich. It is quite possible that she received welfare payments, an entitlement for white mother only, at the time. Perhaps some ambitious journalist will find out, if she did.

Therefore, one can only conclude that Newt was spared a lifetime of Trailer-Parkdom because Mom was fortunate enough to find a new man. One with guaranteed employment; a military man. He adopted Newton Leroy McPherson as his own. Now little Newt was Gingrich. What a lucky, fat bastard.
---
Chauncey, the article you wrote about your dad was beautiful. You always deliver, my brother. I have yet to see any African American sites with writers as great as you.

Happy New Year Chauncey!
Happy New Year to all of the brilliant commentators of WARN!

fred c said...

Oh, and the work of students is studying. That's their job. If they can't learn to do that, and they can't learn to accept the accompanying deferred gratification, cleaning the school won't teach them how to work hard either.

Students performing menial tasks, and let's face it, it's "certain students" that we're talking about, is just the old wine of the "undeserving poor" in new bottles.

And practical skills training is no substitute at all for fair wages, equal opportunity, and full employment. It's not even a particularly good intermediate step in this new, global economy, where the practical skills would be applied in a labor environment of UN-fair wages, UN-equal opportunity, and chronic high unemployment.

Johan Meyer said...

@Thrasher
Nor did I accuse you of denying them (benefits of practical skills/integration of vocational elements in education). I accused you of avoiding them in the discussion.

@Oh Crap
Well, I did invite you to disabuse me, but I'm not getting you to do that. Of course, you are at complete liberty to ignore unsolicited advice.

But to the both of you, I'll probably leave these parts, as I prefer substantial discussions to vague accusations about who said what when.

Johan Meyer said...

@CNu
TNX for the references. Might have a chat or two on your blog...

Thrasher said...

@Johan,

I provided a post in regard to hollow query you avoided it because it did not fit your myopic paradigm..

Please refrain from indicting me when it is YOU that lacks depth and continues to augment with the forum with the same tired and trite analysis..

Step up for WARN in 2012 we welcome fresh perspectives..

Happy New Year

CNu said...

rotflmbao...,

Is this what it's come to CDV - your mouthy bathroom attendant is now holding it down on your behalf?

Puts me in mind of the reality evasions known to occur at a purportedly curious, skeptical, and analytical salon - which isn't.

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Now you are trying to provoke me.

I spoke my peace. You spoke yours. No retreat. Just a willingness to let folks disagree. The person who you reference would not have even given you that, nor would he acknowledge the validity of your position while pointing out its shortcomings.

How about this as a proposition?

Write a guest post on the failures of we "2nd and 3rd line inheritors" of the Civil Rights movement.

I would love to feature it and would learn much from how you develop the actual argument.

You throw a good many big punches on the issue (how many actually hit...you are quite open for counter-punches), but to this point I don't see a game plan or actual rhythm to a fight. I would be curious to see how the claims build upon one another, their premises, narrative, conclusion, implications, etc.

CNu said...

How about this as a proposition?

Write a guest post on the failures of we "2nd and 3rd line inheritors" of the Civil Rights movement.


Why don't we just clean up and finish off some of what jumped off on this thread?

but to this point I don't see a game plan or actual rhythm to a fight. I would be curious to see how the claims build upon one another, their premises, narrative, conclusion, implications, etc.

1. The schools don't do their job anymore

2. There's no more vocational or technical training taking place anymore

3. Folks running the schools are not operationally or administratively competent anymore

4. Many schools are not safe or orderly anymore

5. The community lacks ownership of both the school physical plant, and, what transpires therein

6. The community lacks ideas, means, and skills to right and repurpose the schools that have been under its political control for decades

7. 2nd/3rd line inheritors comprise the backbone of mismanagement and mis-education that has transpired over the past 40 years - leading to the abject failure of the schools in its charge.

8. 2nd/3rd line inheritors (preachers, lawyers, pundits, activists, professors, and racism chasers) have not ever and do not now possess the knowledge, skill, and ability to address the needs of the constituents they purport to serve

9. 2nd/3rd line inheritors are by their nature and their limited skill set "shouters" capable of calling attention to issues, events, and personalities, but lacking the means to design and implement projects and institutions sufficient to the task of remedying the issues and events that they decry.

Now having set forth the gist of my objection in very clear terms CDV. Please point out a single example of sound counter-punch thrown on this thread, just so I know what you consider sound?

You realize as well as I do that Johan went straight to the heart of the matter thus;

Deskilled people are always repulsive, yet they cannot understand why most people avoid them. Actually, most of the university educated are similarly deskilled - I salute your STEM type efforts, but I'd recommend that you send those under your supervision to get some trade-school schooling prior to doing STEM in a university - too many engineers belong in padded rooms where they cannot hurt themselves - they cannot do anything practical. The rich and the poor deskilled (irrespective of education) are generally scorned.

these types never seem to act on their analyses - contrast with the Panthers (also black separatist) and Steve Biko (not quite, but in many respects close), consequently their (the shouters here) ideas are never moulded by sizing up with reality. (But then, the shouters aren't black separatists either - they want to shout abuse - revenge? Making up for not being involved in substantial activism, but instead running as a local politician?)


What is the likelihood - in your opinion - of any of the incompetent 2nd/3rd line inheritors disastrously and incompetently occupying various and sundry political and administrative positions of status and authority - confessing the extent to which they've FUBAR'd what they've called themselves running, and looking outside their own self-protective ranks for the help they desperately need in order to begin serving rather than disserving their "constituents"?

chaunceydevega said...

@Cnu. Thanks. Very thorough. You forgot a big piece of the puzzle in your broad indictment of educational mismanagement.

What is the role of the State? How do you account for diminished budgets? How does political context and the starving of central cities account for your mismanagement model?

You can have all of the skills, abilities, and vision. With no money you ain't gonna get nothing done.

You are mostly right and I am in agreement with you on many things; I also think you have some real insight into what the world will look like going forward.

Where I disagree is on your inability to paint a full picture of the causal variables responsible for the situation which you lament, and how they may (or not) make the story a bit more complex than the one you offer.

CNu said...

lol,

CDV - I sit in the middle of the most extravagantly funded public school district in the whole and entire U.S. which also just happened to lose its state accreditation on Monday.

If you want to collaborate on something, work with me on a book detailing the manifold failings of the jiggaboo demographic underlying the categorical failure of this public school district.

everything else is self-calming, self-justifying conversation....,

CNu said...

Not only do I know what's around that signpost up ahead (and the only thing I can't pinpoint for you is timing) but my meticulously detailed knowledge of how we got here would boggle your imagination...,

Thrasher said...

CD,
"The person who you reference would not have even given you that, nor would he acknowledge the validity of your position while pointing out its shortcomings."

I reserve the right to own my words, thoughts, ideas , etc..

Nothing CNu listed motivated me to respond in kind respectfully..Of course I will continue to post my won thoughts and reactions on whatever/ whenever/wherever...

Just saying

Thrasher said...

CNu,

BTW thanks for dumping your mentor John Covington on the students in Detroit and Michigan..

Of course blaming Black folks fits your paradigm especially if they are the offspring of your favorite suspects..

Oh Crap said...

@Johan Mayer

@Oh Crap
Well, I did invite you to disabuse me, but I'm not getting you to do that. Of course, you are at complete liberty to ignore unsolicited advice.


Of course I am, and I'm also at liberty to reject it, and tell you I'm doing so while I do it.

It's not my job or intention to "disabuse" or persuade you on any topic.

But to the both of you, I'll probably leave these parts, as I prefer substantial discussions to vague accusations about who said what when.

Stick around or don't; that's completely up to you. If you do decide to come back, think twice next time before lecturing people you know nothing about, and have only read about on the internet.