tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post8530583927970506947..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: The Culture of Cruelty is International: From Lynchings to Eric Garner and the CIA Torture ReportLady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-48206012380827111792014-12-16T18:06:52.565-06:002014-12-16T18:06:52.565-06:00Thanks. I think the four-paragraph idea sounds ver...Thanks. I think the four-paragraph idea sounds very interesting. I deplore the constant pressure for ever more brevity, which is why I mostly don't have much to do with Twitter. But a few short, punchy essays like that could have a lot of impact.OldPolarBearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-24764146244666537902014-12-16T07:50:06.340-06:002014-12-16T07:50:06.340-06:00Spot on! That's exactly what Alice Miller says...Spot on! That's exactly what Alice Miller says in her books: Parents take revenge on their children for the maltreatment they've suffered in their own childhood.Ginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-38946866247000838512014-12-15T22:59:01.285-06:002014-12-15T22:59:01.285-06:00Russell Brand is great! The video was excellent.
...Russell Brand is great! The video was excellent.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Spare the rod,<br />Spoil the child.<br />{I learned this nursery rhyme from V for Vendetta.}kokaneehttp://www.byebyedemocracy.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-90441156019249560122014-12-13T11:13:17.133-06:002014-12-13T11:13:17.133-06:00Would require an opening of the eyes, which are cr...Would require an opening of the eyes, which are crazy-glued shut with propaganda. They fear it may tear at their eyelids.seeknsanitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-9089953641989993972014-12-13T10:52:52.327-06:002014-12-13T10:52:52.327-06:00Very good article,CD. "in its deranged madnes...Very good article,CD. "in its deranged madness," America has committed some of the worst acts of mankind. I'm glad you mentioned action either directly committed, or "inspired" abroad that go back to when everyone was under the impression that we were the beacon of freedom and democracy, and continue to this day. To the world we are not who we think we are. <br /><br />http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/12/31/united-states-seen-as-greatest-threat-to-world-peace-in-2013/<br /><br />And when you consider the documents that are now being released after their mandatory hiatus, which I think is designed to prevent any sort of justice being done to recover the effects of bad choices, I don't believe we ever were who we believe we are. Finding out that the most horrific act committed during WWII, the dropping of atomic bombs on cities full of civilians, in a country that they knew was on the brink of surrendering.<br /><br />http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/06/the-atomic-bombing-of-japan/<br /><br />We then turned our deranged madness upon the threat of only real competition to our system of "democracy," communism and the idea that people might see it as an attractive alternative to feudal capitalism. Initiating the Cold War with Russia borrowing all of the propaganda techniques of the previous competitor to world domination, Germany and essentially stepping into thier role as imperialists seeking world domination. We've been on a tear since then, sowing dissent whenever countries chose to get cozy with Russia, or when people showed interest in a collective well-being, setting in motion the basis for killing millions of people worldwide. Mostly, people who were otherwise peaceful. The result being, capitalism has killed more people than communism has ever done, with estimates reaching in the six million range.<br /><br />http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm<br /><br />And we are still at it, in the name of freedom, of course. Witnessing the events unfold in Ukraine, in front of our eyes, and knowing how the targeting of Ukraine was outlined in the Wolfowitz doctrine. <br /><br />http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/26/why-war-is-inevitable/<br /><br />And the how outlined in the current president's foreign policy advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski's book The Grand Chessboard. This man has been shaping foreign policy since President Johnson and the result have gotten us to the point where everyone is on edge of the threat of nuclear war. A threat which is very real because, as we have already demonstrated, at least one party is willing to use them. <br /><br />Deranged madness.seeknsanitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-30196335538230788192014-12-12T20:52:09.315-06:002014-12-12T20:52:09.315-06:00"This is the failure of national character th..."This is the failure of national character that made the horrors of bombing and necklacing by Nelson and Winnie Mandela possible."Lemaricus_Davidsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-69901072664482605432014-12-12T17:15:43.685-06:002014-12-12T17:15:43.685-06:00Interestingly enough, Robert Parry posted this tod...Interestingly enough, Robert Parry posted this today about America's unwillingness to face its past:<br /><br />http://www.opednews.com/articles/How-Awesome-Is-America-by-Robert-Parry-Patriotism_Racism_Slavery_Torture-141212-542.htmldrspittlenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-47548390024545680982014-12-12T14:06:32.571-06:002014-12-12T14:06:32.571-06:00I am only one voice in a chorus to quote Star Trek...I am only one voice in a chorus to quote Star Trek: TNG. I appreciate you sharing the link. <br /><br /><br />There are some books we need to revisit because we appreciate them differently w. older eyes. I put Souls of Black Folks up there on the list of books that folks claim to have read and most certainly have not. His idea of "dual" or "double consciousness" is one of the most misunderstood yet oft discussed concepts in American letters.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-72999446038016135772014-12-12T14:04:19.153-06:002014-12-12T14:04:19.153-06:00Rambling is good. I see none of that above. Isn...Rambling is good. I see none of that above. Isn't it hard when we want THEM to be monsters and they are just regular, confused, propagandized people who have internalized lies as truths. In many cases we love them anyway, they are still our friends, relatives, and kin.<br /><br /><br />Your voice is always welcome and valued here. I am really trying to work on more 4 paragraph style essays that are substantive yet leave something left to think about and can be easily shared online. One of my goals for the new year.<br /><br /><br />Do you think that would be a good addition?chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-29841235258420095152014-12-12T14:01:45.413-06:002014-12-12T14:01:45.413-06:00I was looking for the same cross section and could...I was looking for the same cross section and couldn't find it at first glance, maybe I missed the link?chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-63057467408962032052014-12-12T14:00:59.754-06:002014-12-12T14:00:59.754-06:00My school was only a tiny bit better. I got those ...My school was only a tiny bit better. I got those readings from relatives and friends of parents and hanging out w. the grad students and professors my father insisted on feeding at our house or leaving me with when he would make his maintenance rounds. Life is funny, sitting w. a much younger Cornel West and annoying him with questions as a kid paid some dividends.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-83076589338168256292014-12-12T13:59:04.494-06:002014-12-12T13:59:04.494-06:00Damn that is some truth telling. Knowledge enema a...Damn that is some truth telling. Knowledge enema as I like to call it.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-67542680411087375282014-12-12T13:06:29.671-06:002014-12-12T13:06:29.671-06:00I was heartened to see at least some high school s...I was heartened to see at least some high school students and teachers this year launching counter-protests against the various bullshit right-wing protests against the College Board's updated AP American History curriculum. These right-wingers even essentially admit that there is nothing inaccurate about the new curriculum; they simply feel that to emphasize all of these actual facts would paint too negative a picture of this country. Their problem isn't with the truth of the matter, but with its truthiness.<br /><br /><br />As for myself, only in the past couple of years have I realized how astounding it is that I never encountered authors like DuBois, Baldwin, Morrison, Ellison, Wright, etc. during my high school or undergraduate years. Some of that is on me; I studied English as an undergrad, but my focus was on the British tradition, and at that time it wouldn't even have occurred to me to seek out an African-American literature or intellectual history course. But how did I go through four years of high school without ever picking up "Invisible Man" or "Native Son"? I know the answer: my high school was private, Catholic and overwhelmingly white. In Florida, too, and yet we never even took a glance at Zora Neale Hurston. (All that aside, I'm actually not sure that books like "Invisible Man" and "Native Son" ought to be taught in high school anyway; how is a 16-year-old supposed to wrap his or her head around all that, especially when they're not getting the proper background knowledge in their history classes as it is?)Jim Wagnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-51550075371838626852014-12-12T12:39:05.413-06:002014-12-12T12:39:05.413-06:00Chauncey, I read the whole thing and the comments ...Chauncey, I read the whole thing and the comments and noticed your observation that people weren't commenting. I was pretty active commenting for a while and then lately I haven't been a very good commenter. Sometimes I read your posts and you say everything so thoroughly and so well that there just doesn't seem to be much of anything I can say and my comment would just be, "everything you said." Which I have also posted a couple of times.<br /><br />I have gotten to a point where I am so disgusted by it all that I am somewhat numb and don't know what to say any more. This is not helpful to anybody, of course, and I have no right to be that way and I can only try to imagine what it is to deal with this crap for black people. Perhaps a lot of people are that way.<br /><br />Other people are just hardened into their beliefs and there doesn't seem to be any way to get to them. Often I try to think what I might do. I tend to be pretty solitary and don't talk to people a lot to begin with, but occasionally I try. <br /><br />I have a younger acquaintance, early 40s, a relative of a relative, who I see fairly often. He epitomizes the problem in many ways. Single parent with a teenage daughter, both of them living in his divorced mom's house. Something of a n'er-do-well, educationally and career-wise, with a low-paying job. Not a mean bone in his body, really, although he can fly into a rage if he's slighted or think he's been wronged. Will often go out of his way to help people in trouble, including people of color. Listens to Fox News, Limbaugh, right-wing radio talk (e.g., Tom Merino) and the like. Spouts the crap he hears from these. Not the racist parts -- I think he honestly works on not being racist, which as we know can be a problematic approach in itself -- but other really repressive right-wing talking points. I try, when I hear it, to very carefully and calmly reason with him about these. There are complications, for example, his mom has no patience with it (can't blame her, really; she is around it all the time) and will be yelling, "shut up; you're an idiot," etc.<br /><br />Fortunately, his daughter is better, she will flat-out call him out on the worst stuff, mostly anti-Muslim statements. But it's just hard to make headway. And the same is true of coworkers, the main group of people I see and interact with. Most of mine are actually a pretty liberal lot, but they will also repeat some of the conventional wisdom about the police killings, which I know they are mostly just parroting from the mainstream media sources. I try to push back, perhaps too gently, after all it is work and I have to, you know, work with people, but it seems like it is always immediately, "Yeah, but what about blah blah blah ..."<br /><br />So here I am not having commented, and now having rambled on and on. Seriously, I don't want it to be about me and what a good, white anti-racist I am. People were talking about education and the like and I am just trying to figure out what to do.OldPolarBearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-77219292891321762072014-12-12T12:03:28.951-06:002014-12-12T12:03:28.951-06:00Yes, I am reading Baptist's book. There are o...Yes, I am reading Baptist's book. There are others that amplify different parts of the slavery-capitalism-democracy connection. You are absolutely correct that the North-South division taught in schools is nonsense. I don't know which book I read it in, (oh, it was Complicity by Connecticut journalists), the mayor of New York City wanted to secede from the Union to protect the slave business in New York City. Even then "Wall Street" was on the side of oppression and exploitation.James Estrada-Scaminaci IIInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-23535367820662014862014-12-12T11:47:06.357-06:002014-12-12T11:47:06.357-06:00All manifestations of antinomianism are maladaptiv...All manifestations of antinomianism are maladaptive and in contravention of the main value patterns of all cultures. The human race would not have survived thus far if it was innately pathogenic. The power elite's attempt to routinize torture and brutality is an exercise in futility. "They've" pulled off a shotgun marriage of nazism and corporatocracy that's full of irreconcilable differences.joe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-20317344332830875162014-12-12T11:43:26.859-06:002014-12-12T11:43:26.859-06:00Your second paragraph is spot on. The Right-wing A...Your second paragraph is spot on. The Right-wing American authoritarian is a fascinating creature. They drone on about "tyranny" from "big gov't" but then support torture, police brutality, wanton cruelty, etc as long as the victims are not white. Good old herrenvolk logic.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-34048371078320193912014-12-12T11:41:55.360-06:002014-12-12T11:41:55.360-06:00America's formal educational system is a syste...America's formal educational system is a system designed to create compliant corporate consumers who believe in American exceptionalism. Now, we need to work outside of that system to educate proper citizens.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-78901665009447881942014-12-12T11:40:57.430-06:002014-12-12T11:40:57.430-06:00Great use of Wholin. Thanks for the kind words too...Great use of Wholin. Thanks for the kind words too.<br /><br /><br />Re: foreign aid. I believe that Iraq and Cuba have actually supported black political organizations? No. And this is an interesting historical question, during the Cold War, were the Russians and their allies ever successful at sending resources enough resources to black political organizations to ever influence their behavior? Very doubtful because the Black Freedom Struggle--with very few exceptions--was about forcing American democracy and capitalism be more inclusive and fair. Nevermind how the FBI and Cointelpro would have had a field day with the info.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-22656259286177511212014-12-12T11:23:55.939-06:002014-12-12T11:23:55.939-06:00Lipset posited pluralism as a countervailing force...Lipset posited pluralism as a countervailing force against monism, but the monists appear to have gained distinct advantage.joe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-25484826210880033382014-12-12T09:40:24.364-06:002014-12-12T09:40:24.364-06:00I share some of your pessimism but also wonder if ...I share some of your pessimism but also wonder if education couldn't play a significant role in changing this status quo. I'm wary of holding out education as a panacea, of course, but considering how little American students learn about the real history of this country, I've got to believe it couldn't hurt. It seems that at least some measure of white resistance to black justice claims is rooted in white Americans' shoddy understanding of history. "Geez, we know slavery was bad and all, but it was so long ago, and then Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King did some stuff and got you people all your rights, so what are you still complaining about?"Jim Wagnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-29622986621997704752014-12-12T08:11:05.343-06:002014-12-12T08:11:05.343-06:00Russell Brand on CIA Torture Report:
http://www.al...<i>Russell Brand on CIA Torture Report</i>:<br />http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/russell-brand-cia-torture-report-if-rape-being-used-way-get-info-were-already-he-0<br />The comedian suggested that the report should make the public question “the considerable clandestine power these organisations hold”, but noted that government torture techniques are becoming more acceptable. A recent study showed that 36 per cent of Britons think that torture is sometimes necessary.This reminds of the attitude too many adults have towards "spanking" children. Although it is scientifically proven that corporal punishment has a pernicious effect on a child's soul, it is done mercilessly. Society as a boot camp for all these atrocities?<br />Sometimes children just need a good smack on the bottom to<br />get their attention.<br />http://nospank.net/pt2011.pdfhttp://www.nospank.net/main.htm<br /><br />Torture is criminal behavior<br /> Video: <i>How to Prevent Violent Criminal Behavior in the Next Generation</i><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--I0X3-tOwEGinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-65094153655332984032014-12-12T05:27:23.819-06:002014-12-12T05:27:23.819-06:00Ran across this comment in reference to Glen Beck ...Ran across this comment in reference to Glen Beck agreeing that this was murder. <br /><br />Joe E Dangerously<br /><br />It seems like I've been saying this a lot lately but I'm going to keep saying it. The cop who killed Eric Garner is an American hero. That's right. A hero. He did exactly what he was supposed to do and exactly what we wanted him to do.<br /><br />Oh, I wish he didn't do it. I wouldn't have wanted it were I there that day. I'm not happy about it and honestly I think it's cold-blooded murder. But it was the right thing to do. You see, Eric Garner was black. And this is America. I know a lot of you have talked yourselves into believing that black people are treated equally in this country but that is not the case and never has been. Those of you who say racism is less of a problem now than ever before... Are probably right. And that's the sad part. Well, according to me anyway. But my opinion is not the majority. And if you agree with me yours is not either. Right and wrong are two subjective terms. You can argue about how consequences determine morality and how that is in many ways objective and you'd be right but practically speaking what is considered right and wrong is determined by the will of the people. And all the cops killing people, especially black people, lately absolutely is in accordance with the will of the people. America wants this. We love this. We want black people dead because they defile our pure innocent white daughters, rob, murder, and carjack white people, and ruin our neighborhoods and everything else with their graffiti, drugs, gangs, and guns. Now you may disagree with that, as I do, but we don't get to determine what society wants. And clearly, as all these recent verdicts, acquittals, and refusals to indict, prosecute, etc. show, this is what our society wants.<br /><br />So why are we pretending there was any wrongdoing here? They were just doing their jobs. They were following the will of the people. These cops are great Americans. They are American heroes. Darren Wilson is an American hero. George Zimmerman is an American Hero. Wayne Burgarello is an American hero. And the list goes on. Oh, you don't think they're heroes? Okay. I agree... Personally. And as much as Hitler has become the go-to example for all the idiots on the internet in this case it effectively drives my point home. Hitler was a hero too. A Nazi hero. Bin Laden was a terrorist hero. Hitler was a great Nazi. Bin Laden was a great terrorist. And these cops, along with everyone else who has been spilling blood willynilly lately are great Americans.<br /><br />Do you like what you see, America? Because this is what we are. It's what we've always been. If you like it, keep on keeping on. If not, maybe it's time to start changing the culture. But until the culture changes, until the will of the people changes, these people did the right thing and they are heroes. In 2014 America what they did was right and heroic. Because that is what America is.Learning IS Eternalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-89517699088233029932014-12-12T00:54:38.340-06:002014-12-12T00:54:38.340-06:00Most of our history has become so sanitized (and i...Most of our history has become so sanitized (and in most cases, romanticized), that it's nearly impossible for Americans to realize the endemic culture of cruelty that spans this country's history. <br /><br />Exhibit A: http://prospecthill.com/rooms_sanco.htm<br /><br />History is commodified, manufactured, and disseminated in a tradition of Whig history: a narrative of continual progress. Every reversion, every line that can be drawn to the cruelty of the past, disrupts the entire framework that children are indoctrinated to apply to civics and history. The same defense used against reparations for slavery ("no one who owned slaves is alive now") is used, without irony, to dismiss the CIA torture report ("why are we talking about this, it was so long ago?"). The idea is: we're past it, it's over, stop talking about this and let the world advance. That progressive narrative poisons the debate so much that even bringing up the continuing effects of racism is seen as preventing "history" from moving forward to a better world.Justin M. Whitehttp://www.justinmwhite.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-12428069150018716272014-12-12T00:20:00.055-06:002014-12-12T00:20:00.055-06:00It's hard to know where to even start with thi...It's hard to know where to even start with this. Your article has said so much about the connection between domestic and international terrorism (I mean US-sanctioned State terrorism as well as the domestic kind like the KKK, prison guards, the clinic bombers and more). <br /><br /><br />People want to take pride in their ancestry. I have abolitionist activists and enslavers in the same generation on the same side of the family. It's a hard thing to admit that people who helped create me were capable of these monstrous acts, and yet I know they were--and the White American myth of exceptionalism has the same difficulty. Surely it couldn't have been THAT bad? Like the community that can't hear the abused child accuse the pillar-of-the-community father. How do we cleanse America of these crimes--foreign and domestic--unless they are outed and atoned for, but how can they be outed when the shame could destroy the illusion of community? <br /><br /><br />I'm curious to know, in the stats about how many Americans approve of the use of torture, what the racial breakdown is of that 49% approval rating. Are black and brown people, who have witnessed or experienced it first- or second-handm part of that number, or are they over in the "rarely" or "never justified" columns? Does anyone know?Waterwitchnoreply@blogger.com