tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post831010904271540350..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: A "Spielberg's Movie 'Lincoln' is an Exercise in Bad Historiography and Whitewashing of History" RoundupLady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-77111134398443715842012-12-05T19:54:31.334-06:002012-12-05T19:54:31.334-06:00It's not as interesting as it is 'telling&...It's not as interesting as it is 'telling'. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-16297198243266514922012-11-30T17:06:01.112-06:002012-11-30T17:06:01.112-06:00Chauncey
Thanks for saving me the price of the t...Chauncey <br /><br />Thanks for saving me the price of the ticket<br /><br />if I'm gonna see a Zombie Movie I'd rather see a move expressly designed to be a Zombie Movie, not for white liberal Zombies. <br />Invisible Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615524438949539565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-3722530619288090712012-11-30T16:14:24.615-06:002012-11-30T16:14:24.615-06:00Well, if you like, Buddy, i'll be indiferent f...Well, if you like, Buddy, i'll be indiferent for the sake of variety.insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-44999133620939380512012-11-30T14:28:56.879-06:002012-11-30T14:28:56.879-06:00Interesting comments all around.
Mr D., your comm...Interesting comments all around.<br /><br />Mr D., your comment:<br /><br />"a mouth vomiting seen with Thaddeus Stephens in bed with his black mistress reading the bill for the 13th Amendment to him."<br /><br />contrasted with Inspid's comment:<br /><br />"a loving, healthy, equal relationship that was not allowed to exist in law because of the racism of the time."<br /><br />As a white man married for almost 25 years to a black woman, I've experienced a WIDE variety of reactions to our relationship, from Black and White. Some very negative, some positive, very few indifferent.<br /><br />I just find it interesting how differently you both viewed the same scene. "Mouth vomiting" vs. "loving, healthy."<br /><br />- Buddy H,<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-85224429943823616952012-11-30T05:21:56.233-06:002012-11-30T05:21:56.233-06:00@Chauncey, yes I have some of the concerns that yo...@Chauncey, yes I have some of the concerns that you raised, although my main concern was that it was too long. And as I put in a review, the film veered toward hagiography. There could and should have been more explanation and examination of Lincoln's own racism.<br /><br />But<br /><br />How many dramas or action movies open up with black men KILLING white men? And with same black men later unapologetically saying we didn't take any prisoners? And the black men are the good guys?<br /><br />Compared to your typical Civil War era movie, say "Gods and Generals", that's a big departure. For a mainstream white filmmaker like Spielberg I wouldn't expect much more.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-1741119471072405212012-11-30T04:04:38.723-06:002012-11-30T04:04:38.723-06:00I will probably still see Lincoln, while watching ...I will probably still see Lincoln, while watching out for these issues. But in truth, all I ask is an epic Frederick Douglass or Robert Smalls movie! f.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-10364878666210298132012-11-30T02:46:03.094-06:002012-11-30T02:46:03.094-06:00Spielberg is subject to criticism. I am subject t...Spielberg is subject to criticism. I am subject to criticism and so are you and so is everyone else. Except my mother, she's a saint i tell you, a saint!<br /><br />I am not saying that I do not find fault with the movie. I am dumbfounded that Spielberg didn't include Lincoln's visit to Richmond. That was the scene I was most looking forward to seeing. What better way to illustrate the importance of the 13th amendment then to actually SHOW black slaves meeting their liberator? I also can’t understand why he had Lincoln’s death in there at all. It had nothing to do with the passage of the amendment or its aftermath. I also could have used less of the Williams Score.<br /><br />You’re right, that film-making is about choices. My feeling is that having Frederick Douglas in as a bit character would have been disrespectful towards the man and his contribution. The story Lincoln told was of a time where Lincoln had ALREADY decided to pass the 13th amendment. Douglas’ role was to bring him to that point. There were MANY historical characters, pivotal to Lincolns life, many pivotal to the passage of the amendment, that were left out of the movie.<br />The story Lincoln told was one of deal-making more than anything else. So the characters in there were mostly the deal-makers.<br /> <br />I do agree with Kate Masur’s point that a scene of Lincoln having a conversation with a black person- be it a servant or a street vendor-would have enriched the movie. They should not have been depicted as disinterested third parties.<br /><br />I disagree with the historian that claimed slavery was “all but dead”. At the time of the movie there were millions of people still in bondage. There were Southerners and Democrats that were trying to bring the South back in WITH slavery. Even if slavery's death was inevitable, THEY didn’t know that, or think that. Plus implying that the amendment doesn’t matter is just bad drama. It’s like Frodo saying “This ring? Aint Shit”. His criticism of the line regarding the “fate is in our hands” was petty. Lincoln was talking to his cabinet members about passing the amendment; he wasn’t talking to black soldiers going out to fight. Film reviews are not supposed to be gotcha games.<br /><br />I think the last Thadeus Stevens scene was a direct answer to the scurrilous depiction of that same woman in Birth of a Nation. Far from Steven’s being under her evil control, Steven’s was- in all but name- married to her. I saw a loving, healthy, equal relationship that was not allowed to exist in law because of the racism of the time. As a gay man living in a less enlightened state, i can relate.insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-42560971414294877612012-11-30T02:29:17.883-06:002012-11-30T02:29:17.883-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-79254406619180235342012-11-29T23:25:01.170-06:002012-11-29T23:25:01.170-06:00@insipid. my, whiteness is defensive tonight.
i ...@insipid. my, whiteness is defensive tonight. <br /><br />i think it has enough soldiers to carry on without your help. <br /><br />re: your point about making your own movie if you don't like it. That is silly and trite. A movie or any other cultural text is subject to criticism. So by that logic black folks and others should not have protested Birth of a Nation? If you don't like it just shut up is your claim? <br /><br />Film making involves a series of choices. Spielberg chose to make the movie he did in a way that marginalizes black people and makes this an intentionally white washed story. He should be held accountable for those choices. Not that complicated. He chose to not have Frederick Douglass not at all present. He chose to have a nameless group of black folks in the gallery who are mute. He chose to not even mention the role of black abolitionists--one of whom was his personal aid. He chose to have a mouth vomiting seen with Thaddeus Stephens in bed with his black mistress reading the bill for the 13th Amendment to him. Damn, the codes there are deep and I am sure lots will be written about it down the line. <br /><br />Spielberg made choices to appeal to a certain set of political and racial sensibilities. He could have made a better and more powerful/rich/entertaining/critically insightful movie if he simply made other choices to tell the truth. Spielberg decided to keep with the Whiteness and white racial frame in Hollywood. chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-4810648691489676662012-11-29T23:18:11.018-06:002012-11-29T23:18:11.018-06:00Chauncydevega:
I think you are right more general...Chauncydevega:<br /><br /><b>I think you are right more generally about palatable sanitized depictions of slavery and racism that allow white audiences to read themselves into the movie as good people and heroes. Old trope.</b><br /><br />You're forgetting that there were millions of black people at the time and even now that thought of some white people as heroes. Abraham Lincoln is held as a hero by our current great President. Frederick Douglass went to his grave believing that the one man whose hatred of slavery eclipsed his own was a white man by the name of John Brown.<br /><br />And here's what Frederick Douglass had to say about Abraham Lincoln:<br /><br /><b> Fellow-citizens, I end, as I began, with congratulations. We have done a good work for our race today. In doing honor to the memory of our friend and liberator, we have been doing highest honors to ourselves and those who come after us; we have been fastening ourselves to a name and fame imperishable and immortal; we have also been defending ourselves from a blighting scandal. When now it shall be said that the colored man is soulless, that he has no appreciation of benefits or benefactors; when the foul reproach of ingratitude is hurled at us, and it is attempted to scourge us beyond the range of human brotherhood, we may calmly point to the monument we have this day erected to the memory of Abraham Lincoln. </b><br /><br />With due respect, I think that some of the criticisms of Lincoln wreaks of the "foul ingratitude" Douglass spoke of. Black peoples efforts in the cause of freedom was indeed essential, but they did it with the partnership of some good and great white people. Telling the story of one of them does not preclude you from telling the story of the other.insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-22174902718463535542012-11-29T22:59:05.368-06:002012-11-29T22:59:05.368-06:00Blacksage said:
"Therefore, there are no sur...Blacksage said:<br /><br />"<b>Therefore, there are no surprises here that Spielberg directed a shoddy movie that essentially depicts White men as benevolent, freedom loving saviors and adult Black slaves as docile and child-like"</b>.<br /><br />That's a totally inacurate depiction of the movie. The white men depicted in the movie were largely either self-centered and greedy or outright racists. There were no slaves in the movie and the most memorable depiction of blacks was those of black soldiers fighting for their lives against the South. I've never seen a man stabbing another man through the heart with a bayonet as "docile and child-like". You can't accuse Spielberg of being "shoddy" while having a shoddy depiction of what was there.insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-66332302839964386962012-11-29T22:43:29.630-06:002012-11-29T22:43:29.630-06:00I really despise the term "apologist". ...I really despise the term "apologist". I hate it when people use it against me when I'm defending President Obama and I also dislike it in this case. It is arrogant to suppose that the "truth" you are uttering is so self-evident, so irrefutable that anyone disagreeing with it is being an "apologist." If you want to have an adult conversation, let's have at it. Just don't try and pre-label me for disagreeing with your position.<br /><br />What is peculiar about the criticisms is that I haven't heard anyone say specifically that Spielberg got the history wrong. Their flaw, they say, is that Spielberg didn't tell the whole story or that he tried to sell the public on the myth of the "white savior". That he has some kind of gall to even suggest that white people had anything at all to do with the fight for equality. That we should look upon the history of white men as all negative, that there was no partnership at all in the struggle for freedom.<br /><br />However telling the ENTIRE story of emancipation was NOT what Spielberg intended. In fact he didn’t even try to tell the entire story of emancipation in the Lincoln White House. His desire was to tell one story and one story only- the story of how the 13th Amendment got passed and the deals that were necessary to get them passed. Unfortunately that story involves mostly white men.<br /><br />The strange thing about this criticism is that it seems to fault Spielberg for being an insufficient white savior. They’re not saying that he ignored black contributions to the struggle for equality- the opening scene was one featuring black soldiers in a battle for their lives. They’re just saying he didn’t tell it enough. It pre-supposes a certain helplessness on the critics part to tell the story THEY’D like told. If you want a movie about the relationship between Douglass and Lincoln, make the damn movie yourself. If you want a movie dealing more with the military struggle black men and women made against slavery, tell that story yourself. Spielberg is not the only person capable of wielding a camera.<br /><br />The movie struck me as a defense of the Obama administration from his critics on the left. There are those that thought Lincoln a “sell out” for not demanding full negro suffrage, or the right for negros to hold office etc. Just as today there are those that thought President Obama was a “sell out” for not trying for Medicare for all, or pounding the “bully pulpit” for the public option etc. Lincoln thought then as Obama believes now, that politics is the art of the possible, not the perfect.<br /><br />Someday they may very well make a movie about the passage of health care. I only hope i live long enough to hear critics of that movie complaining about the depiction of Obama as "The Black Savior". insipidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06865277636086884137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-42014297479288544352012-11-29T22:33:13.846-06:002012-11-29T22:33:13.846-06:00@Shady. You didn't find it forced?
@Buddy. Th...@Shady. You didn't find it forced?<br /><br />@Buddy. The powers that be thought Frederick Douglass wouldn't be a draw. White audiences wouldn't be interested in seeing him is their calculation.<br /><br />@Anon. Non sequiter. <br /><br />@BS. Yes and no. There are quite a few white historians, some of the best in U.S. history, calling out the movie's mess. I think you are right more generally about palatable sanitized depictions of slavery and racism that allow white audiences to read themselves into the movie as good people and heroes. Old trope. chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-11897237881204947912012-11-29T21:33:12.267-06:002012-11-29T21:33:12.267-06:00How difficult would it have been, in the context o...How difficult would it have been, in the context of a 3 hour movie (Lincoln), to have included 5 minutes, or even 30 seconds, where black people are given some agency and voice in their own freedom struggle? In post-civil rights era America, do such basic gestures to the truth hold too much symbolic power? - ChaunceyD<br /><br />Of course, any gesture that depicts Blacks as being at the helm of their own self determination and freedom is much too powerful a thought to place within the minds of a people who’ve been oppressed for centuries, sometimes, brutally done so. This former slave regime empire will never tell the truth about slavery. Why? They (Whites) will never tell the truth because they must reveal the loss of dignity and liberties, injustices, cruelties, destruction of culture, brutalities and inhumanity that was intentionally inflicted upon the collective Black psyche and bodies. <br /><br />Therefore, there are no surprises here that Spielberg directed a shoddy movie that essentially depicts White men as benevolent, freedom loving saviors and adult Black slaves as docile and child-like. <br /><br />Alternatively, a movie illustrating the atrociously brutal truth regarding slavery would require just the opposite of what Spielberg’s sanitized movie displayed. Hell,.... slave revolts occurred all the time.<br /><br />In summary, it would be refreshing to see a movie circa the slavery era directed by either the Hughes Brothers or Spike Lee. I doubt that this will happen though, because it will undoubtedly stir the imagination of too many Blacks and strike fear within the hearts of too many Whites.<br />Black Sagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353802835713213965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-33636630169638522972012-11-29T21:20:00.074-06:002012-11-29T21:20:00.074-06:00Down with "Senator" Lindsay Graham and h...Down with "Senator" Lindsay Graham and his attack on Susan Rice. He figured he could get a good redboned girl surrounded by a group of white men to "admit" it was a terroist attack. Girlfriend may be redbonded but's she's all black inside she told the truth it was spurred by a video. They couldnt believe a mulatto married to a white man turned against them and upheld the agenda of her black male boss the President of the USA. Remember this is a no no on the plantation state of mind where Mr. Graham still lives. In the good ole days they would have gang raped her and then killed her. Susan Rice is the kind of mixed race negro that led the rebellions, stole away at night, killed her baby girl rather than seen her at the hands of white men in violation, and then kept on keeping on. Defend susan rice no matter what happens they are watching the way we treat each other. They are watching the way we treat our leaders. Stick together black folks and our progressive friends, stick together no matter what and we WIN. Demand justice for Susan Rice and Secretary Clinton as women fighting for us all. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-14400512841781051312012-11-29T20:12:10.042-06:002012-11-29T20:12:10.042-06:00An earlier version of the script (before it was re...An earlier version of the script (before it was re-written by Tony K) was more concerned with Lincoln's friendship with Frederick Douglass. There were apparently many many re-writes, as is common in Hollywood, and the final product serves the "great man" view of history, where a handful of important (white) men guide the world.<br /><br />The opening scene with the black soldier repeating Lincoln's speech back to him, and complaining about unfair wages... I saw it as Spielberg and Kushner's concession to what Kate Masur is writing about.<br /><br />- Buddy H.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-56415713680842226112012-11-29T17:49:22.187-06:002012-11-29T17:49:22.187-06:00I wasn't crazy about the film. But the opening...I wasn't crazy about the film. But the opening shot scene with black soldiers killing white confederates was quite unusual for any Civil War movie, as was the inclusion of black soldiers throughout the film.<br /><br />I agree about Day-Lewis getting an award.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.com