tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post8162806516533035964..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: Ten Things to Keep in Mind When Talking About How White Men are a "Problem" in the Age of ObamaLady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-19757623549871832352013-01-20T22:58:50.149-06:002013-01-20T22:58:50.149-06:00Yes, it is ironic. I find it very sad that when p...Yes, it is ironic. I find it very sad that when people have experienced great persecution or discrimination, they often turn to that exact same sort of behavior as a reaction. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, since it happens in large societal instances and not just in individual circumstances.<br /><br /><br /><br />I spend a great deal of time defending people of color in discussions among my peers against 'white privilege' and all that entails, even though I am a member of that class myself. Where I live, it is mostly Native Americans who are the largest population of people of color, and they bring a whole other dialogue to the table as you can well understand.<br /><br /><br /><br />I don't claim to understand even a tiny bit of the discrimination that people of color experience because of it but I do try to at least be aware that I have advantages simply because of my skin color that others do not and act and speak accordingly. I just hope that in my own very small way I can contribute to a more just society.lokywokynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-42295774410935213902013-01-20T22:46:50.582-06:002013-01-20T22:46:50.582-06:00I didn't notice that I made any claims as to t...I didn't notice that I made any claims as to the "pureness" of my supposed race, only my skin color. And therein lies a great deal of the problem. My skin color is not any clue as to any race-claims - which I did not make.lokywokynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-65053679427218854012013-01-20T21:38:35.799-06:002013-01-20T21:38:35.799-06:00that is my cat "niece." but she likes co...that is my cat "niece." but she likes complements and I will pass them along.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-86914217119912612062013-01-20T20:18:32.052-06:002013-01-20T20:18:32.052-06:00I know an elderly lady named Ms, Scott. She has al...I know an elderly lady named Ms, Scott. She has always been technically free but never worked for anyone but one old southern family, who have ensured she will be well cared for and that she gets a visit at least twice a month from the new younger generations, but she also inspired many others in her years, and my ex girlfriends family still visits once a week after her mother lived with Ms Scott for 5 years while fading into dementia.<br />The main problem will always be the moneyed interests maintaining the current regime,<br />Most people are personally decent, it's the large groups of rich assholes you have to watch out for,Joe Bossehttp://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Bosse/608235497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-76672631889959394522013-01-20T20:01:58.318-06:002013-01-20T20:01:58.318-06:00This is only the second time I've been here, a...This is only the second time I've been here, and so I'm sure I've no good reference to the personalities of the people who comment here so I will ignore the very few things I found offensive. I'm undeniably white, the blue eyes are pretty rare otherwise and most of my family has them. But my grandmother on my father's side was Native American, and I listened to her more as a kid then I paid attention to anything else, when we played cowboys and Indians I always wanted to be the Indian. As anti-pc as that is now, it is how we played as kids, and I really never considered myself anything but a person.<br />When I was in the 4th grade, we had an influx of Haitian immigrants, and there was a bit of culture shock, but not because they were black, it was because they were forced into a completely different culture and nobody knew how to act. I say all this only to point out that this IS the american experience, dealing with the oddities of all our communities.<br />My parents divorced when I was 11, but even before then we had a Hungarian woman who would come help take care of the younger kids every day, we all loved her, but looking back she was little more than an indentured servant through my grandparents (on my mother's side) lutheran church.<br />I know it's easy to blame color when there is so much history behind it, and it's certainly more pronounced lately than I've seen in decades. But that's just because the black guy won twice and the lunatics hate differences. <br />This IS what being a melting pot is all about. It will never be easy. It's just the fastest way towards progress.Joe Bossehttp://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Bosse/608235497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-66871690923917904532013-01-20T19:59:26.468-06:002013-01-20T19:59:26.468-06:00Interesting, but even if race were "real"...Interesting, but even if race were "real", no one is really "pure." For example, a lot of "white" Mediterranean people have African ancestry. A lot of Eastern Europeans have Asian (Mongol) ancestry.fabucathttp://twitter.com/fabucatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-41903194109344866132013-01-20T19:56:00.162-06:002013-01-20T19:56:00.162-06:00This is a beautiful essay. I'm 54, very white...This is a beautiful essay. I'm 54, very white and have spent a lot of my working life serving in what was once a majority African American city (Washington DC). It's been a long journey and an interesting education. I've been blessed with privilege, but I've also been privileged to know some incredible people of all races that I've been able to learn from. By the way, I enjoy that picture of you with your cat.fabucathttp://twitter.com/fabucatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-8127133596235919612013-01-20T19:45:17.556-06:002013-01-20T19:45:17.556-06:00Great points. You know where I stand--race is a tr...Great points. You know where I stand--race is a true/lie and skin color is not destiny...far from it. But, there is much race essentialism going on here among those folks who have been penalized by such thinking along the colorline. <br /><br /><br />Ironic ain't it?chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-64587973891519684922013-01-20T17:49:29.743-06:002013-01-20T17:49:29.743-06:00I am just stunned by some of the comments here. I...I am just stunned by some of the comments here. I am a white woman and I come here often to reach CD's excellent work, and because I want to work on my own sensitivity regarding my own "white privilege" as it were. <br /><br />The comments that my whiteness is a "sick and twisted pathology" simply because of my skin color - you know - because I was born this way - strikes me as just the kind of sick and twisted pathology that I thought we were all trying to eliminate through the process of dialogue and understanding. Am I mistaken? Is the accident of my skin color forever a bar to me being able to even try to some kind of rapprochement with people of non-white skin?<br /><br />If this is how the discussion is going to be, then it is no wonder us "sick and twisted pathological" white people want no part of it.<br /><br />Let me know when someone wants to talk to those of us who really want to try.lokywokynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-1972680186540958672013-01-19T05:05:06.473-06:002013-01-19T05:05:06.473-06:00(Looks like I had one dropped in the changeover. I...(Looks like I had one dropped in the changeover. It went something like this.)<br /><br />Explaining the white thing to white people is a highly charged political enterprise. I'll tackle it one-on-one but I have no general advice. <br /><br />I remain convinced that job-one is more straightforward. We must learn to know each other. Acknowledge that the bridging of the gap is important and take small steps. Like living in a diverse neighborhood; getting to know the family of the kid on your boy's baseball team; do some community work that will have you rubbing shoulders; attend a mixed race church; anything. <br /><br />No need to get heroic about it, just do something. There's no good reason why we shouldn't all be friends, and it's much, much harder to demonize your friends. fred chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10812811681270634366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-17417762873132235792013-01-17T22:32:06.411-06:002013-01-17T22:32:06.411-06:00The institution of the barbaric American style sla...The institution of the barbaric American style slavery with all of the inherent and irreconcilable ethical, moral and religious incongruencies in the attempt to maintain it, took the construct of whiteness from one of simple human pride down the dark road of deep and destructive psychological pathology. <br /><br />White men and guns, as has been discussed here on WARN, are pathologically connected in myriad ways. However, that pathology is probably best displayed on a macro level in the nihilistic number of nuclear weapons in the hands of a very arrogant, yet fearful and paranoid people. <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br />Razornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-50336955020224427702013-01-17T20:17:00.219-06:002013-01-17T20:17:00.219-06:00CD, as you have said, whiteness is a social constr...CD, as you have said, whiteness is a social construct, whose most virulent strain is more uniquely American. <br /><br />It was an ingenious construct that began as a vehicle for economic and social domination by the elite class of europeans over the entire population, including other europeans, with the ironic aid of lower class europeans in exchange for their elevated status and certain privileges at the immeasurable human expense of the people of color who were either captured as indentured slaves or genocidally eliminated. WARN did a great job of covering that period of American history. During that same period all of Europe was colonizing the world with their superior weaponry and penchant for barbarity, greed and guile. Being European had never been better economically and militarily. Along the way these minoriity world people's pride have gone through the roof. Razornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-15577401054066409632013-01-17T14:55:10.793-06:002013-01-17T14:55:10.793-06:00@Tom. Time to move along for you. Name calling? Be...@Tom. Time to move along for you. Name calling? Be mature, substantively comment, or marshal up some evidence. chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-44409265225300146322013-01-17T14:45:42.491-06:002013-01-17T14:45:42.491-06:00Well, because you're dishonest and insane let&...Well, because you're dishonest and insane let's just agree to disagree.<br />Tomhttp://automaticpreference.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-34720801921417737062013-01-17T14:37:19.526-06:002013-01-17T14:37:19.526-06:00@Tom. Given what we know about the prison industri...@Tom. Given what we know about the prison industrial complex and racialized sentencing disparities, if you are privy to any discussions about how "white" ancestry moderate sentencing/or racialized coverage of crime, I am all for it.<br /><br />Who said that post civil rights america is not different from Jim and Jane Crow America. You are being reductionist and silly. <br /><br />"CD that's catchy, but not entirely true. Also as you know ancestry isn't the only issue. I tire of people here imputing to me the tiring idea that I'm making some kind of genetic argument."<br /><br />Race is a social construct that is a true lie. Obama is a black man. There are no pure races. As such, I don't get this fixation by some of mentioning trivialities about Obama's white mother. Why the obsession. He is a black man whose mom happened to be white. No biggie. chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-1385525370647973492013-01-17T14:13:36.946-06:002013-01-17T14:13:36.946-06:00"If Obama were inmate number 135356 there wou..."If Obama were inmate number 135356 there would be no discussion of his "white" ancestry."<br /><br />CD that's catchy, but not entirely true. Also as you know ancestry isn't the only issue. I tire of people here imputing to me the tiring idea that I'm making some kind of genetic argument. <br /><br />Finally ... the man <i>is</i> President. He won twice. <br /><br />Things are changing. You may not want them to change, the change may in early stages, but they're definitely changing.<br /><br />It's satisfying to heap scorn on people naive (or in denial) enough to think Obama's election fixes racism. But folks who say Obama's election doesn't indicate any change at all are just as far off base.<br /><br />Tomhttp://automaticpreference.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-65849586475548939792013-01-17T13:31:05.986-06:002013-01-17T13:31:05.986-06:00@Fred. Good to hear from you. How is the weather w...@Fred. Good to hear from you. How is the weather where you are? That is the dilemma, how do you talk to a poor white guy in Appalachia about being white and privileged? How do we translate what we know statistically, i.e. that poor whites have a better chance of moving up to the top of the class and income pyramid in this country than a black person born to the top tier has of staying there? <br /><br />Ultimately, how do we translate what we know empirically to do something transformative in the service of a "we the people" democracy in the real world?chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-62973989369403333852013-01-17T13:28:37.360-06:002013-01-17T13:28:37.360-06:00@Tom. Obama is a black man. There are no pure race...@Tom. Obama is a black man. There are no pure races. He identifies as such, claims that tradition and history, and is comfortable in his own personhood. If Obama were inmate number 135356 there would be no discussion of his "white" ancestry. <br /><br />Likewise, if he were trying to catch a cab late at night in NYC or Chicago, he would most certainly be treated as a black man. Let's not deny him his agency.<br /><br />There is something occurring in these discussions on a national level--just follow the embedded links--will it be sustained? Doubtful. That does not mean that said cultural moment does not tell us something about the potential present in said moments.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-40421420160678022102013-01-17T13:25:09.690-06:002013-01-17T13:25:09.690-06:00Also, I forgot to add, oviously Obama is black as ...Also, I forgot to add, oviously Obama is black as well white.Tomhttp://automaticpreference.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-69994932235786229602013-01-17T13:13:57.208-06:002013-01-17T13:13:57.208-06:00I don't mean to say anything 'essentialist...I don't mean to say anything 'essentialist' here. Future mass murderers, God help us all, could learn more about their heritage by studying John Mohammed than from Starkweather and Whitman together. Mohammad was the Dusty Springfield of genre-crossing mass murderers, if you see what I'm saying. If he hadn't had that stupid kid along, he'd still be out there.<br /><br />All I'm saying is it's a white men's tradition. You've taken a look at the Icelandic sagas? They read like yesterday's newspaper. You'd never know 700 years have passed.<br />Tomhttp://automaticpreference.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-59901082911079642422013-01-17T11:10:00.481-06:002013-01-17T11:10:00.481-06:00"We are finally talking in an explicit way ab..."We are finally talking in an explicit way about what it means to be white (and male) in America. "<br /><br />Eh ... we are? When are you kicking that off? I don't want to miss it!<br /><br />(a) My guess: It means whatever it meant before. Personally I feel exactly the same, honest. <br /> <br />(b) White US men have traditionally committed mass murder. We're famous for it. I know, I know, now and then you folks copycat it, same as the Beatles copied Chuck Berry. But it's our THING. It's certainly not new, and not a reaction to the reelection of a white president.<br /><br />(c) Apart from the nothingness of point b, what else have you got? What discussion? Put something out there! Just intoning solemnly that we gotta have a discussion is not doing it for me. <br /><br /><br />Tomhttp://automaticpreference.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-21824298966757365402013-01-17T07:57:08.098-06:002013-01-17T07:57:08.098-06:00I'd be most comfortable with "Whiteness&q...I'd be most comfortable with "Whiteness" being defined as the sum of all of the shared, involuntary attributes that come with being perceived as a Caucasian American. <br /><br />Individuals vary greatly, in everything from their evaluation of, and their identification with, European culture to their often, but not always, racist attitudes to the rest of the natural world. So maybe the varied and individualized behaviors should get varied descriptive identifiers. <br /><br />"Whiteness" should be considered aside from "White Privilege." All white Americans benefit from "Whiteness," but many never experience "White Privilege." "Whiteness" is not all positive. <br /><br />Razor: don't over-think this stuff. Most people, black, white or Puerto Rican, wake up in the morning more or less confused and live lives that are more or less out of control. I know I do. I don't apply any overarching framework to my decision making. <br /><br />Well, that's only number one, but I think that I've exceeded my column-inches already. fred chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10812811681270634366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-22177867530678090352013-01-16T23:26:39.357-06:002013-01-16T23:26:39.357-06:00@razor. these matters are hard for folks to talk a...@razor. these matters are hard for folks to talk about--few of want to look in the mirror, even fewer of us who think we are "progressive" or liberal on these matters especially.<br /><br />interesting thoughts; i would be curious to hear what you think about the use of the word "pathological" to describe Whiteness as a social construct.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-74819309153367442132013-01-16T22:54:09.291-06:002013-01-16T22:54:09.291-06:00CD, you put a lot out there.
I did not expect tha...CD, you put a lot out there.<br /><br />I did not expect that many of your european-oriented visitors of WARN would be able to respond in a sober and honest manner to your multi-faceted inquiries into the concept of whiteness. I imagine the psychological unpacking of that knapsack could actually be carthartically frightening. <br /><br />I cannot and will not try to define whiteness. But from my perspective, viewed from the outside, whiteness is a sick and twisted pathology experienced by all who embrace it. At it's most basic level, it is no more than simple human pride, a common flaw found in all men from fall of Adam (for those who believe the biblical story). However, what the world has witnessed as whiteness for about the last six hundred years, is human pride when it is full grown in all of it's satanic splendor and power. Because of it's apparent sucess it even has the appearance of having been ordained of God (and perhaps it has as God raised up Babylon to be great in order to punish Israel, as he foretold his prophets he would, and then utterly destroy his instrument Babylon for their own wickedness) while rejecting God while creating their own False God of White Power and White Privilege within the rubric of Christianity for religious cover (as I have written here before). Whiteness is pathologically and practically for all intents and purposes in it's great pride...become a false, sacreligious and nihilistic pagan and satanic religion. <br /><br />The ephemeral object of worship here though is the absence of color.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Razornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-5533612415162529452013-01-15T21:43:03.703-06:002013-01-15T21:43:03.703-06:00@anne. talk about a dust up. post apartheid s. afr...@anne. talk about a dust up. post apartheid s. africa still has many who yearn for when the days were good to them. there are some interesting stories from the s. african media about poor whites which echo many of the comments made by white reactionaries here in the u.s.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.com