tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post7399508517328805590..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: Chris Matthews Cuts a Mean Promo on the Paris Terror Attacks and Religious Grievance-Mongering While The American Taliban's Bill Donohue Explains That 'Muslims are Right to be Angry'Lady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-27256290873353403172015-01-12T05:52:07.867-06:002015-01-12T05:52:07.867-06:00I really appreciate your professional approach. Th...I really appreciate your professional approach. These are pieces of very useful information that will be of great use for me in future.Pool Party in Gurgaonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-74552219187393575252015-01-10T09:35:24.407-06:002015-01-10T09:35:24.407-06:00"People make a choice to become muslim or chr..."People make a choice to become muslim or christian. Black folks had no choice regarding the color of their skin." <br /><br /><br />While I agree with this distinction, it is important not to dismiss bigotry against religious groups, which often is just a cover for bigotry against ethnic groups. <br /><br /><br />If a person wanted to attack Whites in Utah without directly attacking their race, they might attack Mormonism instead. That's not to say all, or most, criticism of Mormonism is a covert attack on Whites, but you get the point. <br /><br /><br />France has anti-racism laws which would discourage overt attacks on race,religion, nationality, ethnicity, etc. Cartoons overtly attacking North African immigrants would be in violation of the law, but cartoons portraying the impregnated rape victims of Boko Haram as welfare queens are permitted. Cartoons overtly attacking Muslims are against the law, but hook nosed, lewd depictions of Muhammed fall just short of crossing the legal line.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-38452283808749495492015-01-10T00:31:23.488-06:002015-01-10T00:31:23.488-06:00Comments were off for a bit, but back on now.Comments were off for a bit, but back on now.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-20840851197409314232015-01-09T22:22:31.517-06:002015-01-09T22:22:31.517-06:00Hmmmm, but when I look at the draconian laws in va...Hmmmm, but when I look at the draconian laws in various islamic countries around the world I say to myself.. hell they abuse their own folks in worse ways.<br /><br />Perhaps you do have a right to life, though break some law in an islamic country and they will take your life in the drop of a hat. <br /><br />The sultan of brunei recently declared death senteces for the following actions, rape, adultery, sodomy, extramarital sexual relations and insulting verses <br />of the Koran and murder.<br /><br />I won't argue about rape but adultery and insulting verses of the koran ? GTFOH !<br /><br />Its bad enough for people of color in the U.S. regarding harsh laws and punishments, this mess in Brunei is insane and medieval.Lewis Ornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-17999270630543935402015-01-09T22:16:50.779-06:002015-01-09T22:16:50.779-06:00Reverence for Christianity is a given in American ...Reverence for Christianity is a given in American society and mass media; akin to false reverence for the police. It is part of the civil religion. Atheists are among the most disliked groups in the U.S. according to repeated surveys by Pew and others. <br /><br /><br />One could also make the observation that your attitude in favor of religion holds a high level of influence over your logic.<br /><br /><br />Your tone is a bit off point right now. I am issuing a temporary "time out" so that you can reevaluate and correct your tone.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-55999129945663968672015-01-09T22:09:58.071-06:002015-01-09T22:09:58.071-06:00Murder infringes upon the most basic human right: ...Murder infringes upon the most basic human right: the right to life. <br /><br /><br />The Charlie Hebdo cartoons indeed satirize a number of targets, just as negative depictions aren't limited to minorities in American media, but take on a certain context when factoring in the context of the society in which those depictions are produced. <br /><br /><br />I've looked at the cartoons. Some do attempt to make a satirical point. Others are just plain mean-spirited with no other intent than to insult and in some cases serve as propaganda, such as their depiction of impregnated Boko-Haram rape victims as welfare queens.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-47387376491288034192015-01-09T22:03:13.841-06:002015-01-09T22:03:13.841-06:00Excellent points, though you lost me with the comm...Excellent points, though you lost me with the comment regarding white bigots whose rights were infringed. Are you referring to the folks at Charlie Hebdo newspaper ?<br /><br />Killing someone isnt infringing on their rights, it is murder. I thought the Charlie Hedbo folks satirized all religions, I had no idea they were considered bigots. Or have I misunderstood you?Lewis Ornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-80089055672031083822015-01-09T22:03:08.581-06:002015-01-09T22:03:08.581-06:00You really don't even need the analogy. The Ch...You really don't even need the analogy. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons shouldn't be forbidden. That's not what some of us are arguing.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-91331777056866941192015-01-09T22:00:00.474-06:002015-01-09T22:00:00.474-06:00I'm not heated at all, Chauncey. I will say th...I'm not heated at all, Chauncey. I will say that you should perhaps hold a mirror up to yourself. While I don't think you're "heated," it does seem that you are allowing your attitude toward religion undue influence on your logic.<br /><br /><br />I bring up Fox, as that is the only channel where I see an expected level of dogma, where there seems to be a requirement for on-air personalities to express reverence for Christianity (though, yes, not all you listed), and going so far as to declare a war has been waged on Christmas just because some say "Happy Holidays." <br /><br /><br />If I'm mistaken, I'm open to being educated by some evidence showing a widespread fear among on-air personalities to omit honorifics. Attack the points, not me.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-17310597396256455362015-01-09T21:54:35.626-06:002015-01-09T21:54:35.626-06:00Or how about folks of the Jedi religion whose numb...Or how about folks of the Jedi religion whose numbers are suggested as high as several hundred thousand world wide are suddenly offended by criticisms and satire of all things Star Wars. They decide to strike back against their critics, attacking and bludgeoning them to death with light sabre hilts. <br /><br />Should we then forbid criticisms and satire of the Star Wars mythos?Lewis Ornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-36401825882597245742015-01-09T21:52:29.738-06:002015-01-09T21:52:29.738-06:00I do suggest you reread my comment as I am pretty ...I do suggest you reread my comment as I am pretty fair in my rejection of magical thinking across the board. I would also suggest taking a brief time out to collect yourself, take a breath, and get a bit of critical distance on the topic before commenting again as you seem a bit heated on the topic right now.<br /><br /><br />Relax and recharge for the weekend.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-62466784819564880482015-01-09T21:47:45.566-06:002015-01-09T21:47:45.566-06:00"Likewise, whenever people are tv talking abo..."Likewise, whenever people are tv talking about Jesus Christ, Allah, Muhammad, etc. I wish they would have the courage to not use some honorific like 'Lord', 'Savior', 'Prophet' etc., esp. if they don't subscribe to such fantasies."<br /><br /><br />If you haven't seen that, maybe you've been observing the enemy on Fox too much. The only one that's almost universally attached to an honorific, in my experience, is Muhammed, and that's likely to distinguish the prophet from all of the other Muhammed's out there. It's not exactly an uncommon name.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-79901916154068134492015-01-09T21:33:03.109-06:002015-01-09T21:33:03.109-06:00Am I to take it, from your response, that you woul...Am I to take it, from your response, that you would prefer childish dismissals to well articulated explanations of the value of free speech?Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-58969449763853104722015-01-09T21:25:43.170-06:002015-01-09T21:25:43.170-06:00Remind me, again, who props up the oppressive Saud...Remind me, again, who props up the oppressive Saudi government? That would be the same nation that will work with its allies to kidnap and funnel people through secret prisons, torturing them, and detaining the indefinitely with no due process or regards for the most basic of human rights. That would be the same nation that effectively deports one of its citizens, for raising awareness about forced feeding, by not allowing him to reenter the nation after a trip to Africa. In this same nation the police openly call for punishment of athletes who wear shirts protesting police brutality and the Supreme Court works to find legal justification for denying Blacks simple rights like the right to walk down the street without being accosted and felt up by the police. In this same nation, something as benign as calling for more diverse representation in gaming is met with intimidation ranging from dumping a target's personal information onto the web to threats of Columbine style attacks, forcing many critics to flee their homes. In this same nation bombs are placed alongside MLK march routes and outside of NAACP buildings. <br /><br /><br />But lets all pretend freedom is under any more threat than it already was because this time it was a group of White bigots whose rights were infringed.Charnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-30857141631545573122015-01-09T16:49:49.848-06:002015-01-09T16:49:49.848-06:00So is the solution to riot and kill in response to...So is the solution to riot and kill in response to cartoons and speech we don't like, thus making it an "incitement" to violence and prohibited by law?<br /><br /><br />Again, once we surrender basic principles the slope becomes very very slippery.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-37780142942822942432015-01-09T16:45:45.124-06:002015-01-09T16:45:45.124-06:00Further regarding the law, expressions intended to...Further regarding the law, expressions intended to incite violence are not protected by American law. This of course does not apply to France, but does help to frame whether what hebdo was publishing was beyond anything that could be reasonably expected to be protected.SWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-39565141956014334012015-01-09T16:41:17.422-06:002015-01-09T16:41:17.422-06:00Is the price of freedom not the onus placed on the...Is the price of freedom not the onus placed on the speaker (or drawer), to be responsible for his or her own words? <br /><br /><br />In other words, we are all free to say what we like, for the most part, but are we free from the consequences of the words that we speak? <br /><br /><br />Regarding the law. The shooters in the hebdo murders were lawless actors. They had no regard for the laws that maintain the French's freedom of expression, and no regard for the laws that serve to minimize murder. <br /><br /><br />Knowing that a lawless individual may literally take your life for the content you create, would seem to require consideration by the creator, or speaker, beyond their perceived protections under the law.SWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-50411949906137174402015-01-09T16:19:54.184-06:002015-01-09T16:19:54.184-06:00I sit quietly. My wife is liberal. She knows t...I sit quietly. My wife is liberal. She knows the priests and reverends and ministers are all about control. She doesn't buy their bullshit, but she still prays. If we visit her family, there are prayers before dinner. I was asked one thanksgiving to lead them in prayer, and I politely and awkwardly declined. (I spent the rest of the night fantasizing that I'd delivered Williams Burroughs' thanksgiving prayer):<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLSveRGmpIE<br /><br /><br /><br />We've had arguments in the past. I've learned to compromise. Her prayers give her life structure and make her feel better. And if she feels better, I feel better. That's how I look at it.Buddy Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-51690597205187815852015-01-09T15:43:20.801-06:002015-01-09T15:43:20.801-06:00I would argue their religious beliefs/ideology ar...I would argue their religious beliefs/ideology are being lampooned, not their ethnicity. Also the mindset of many radicals such as Anjem Choudary is that ultimately the entire world should be converted to Islam. <br /><br />Confusing religious beliefs for ethnicity is incredibly dangerous and irresponsible. People make a choice to become muslim or christian. Black folks had no choice regarding the color of their skin. <br /><br />These extremists are no different than the catholic inquisitors from days of old.Lewis Ornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-48302511660983436912015-01-09T15:25:57.820-06:002015-01-09T15:25:57.820-06:00I am an atheist. My wife is a believer. We agree t...I am an atheist. My wife is a believer. We agree to disagree. She has a friend who invites us to a barbecue every year. The friend is uber-religious; never met a church she didn't like. I attend the barbecue and keep my mouth shut, even when the guests express opinions I find bigoted and ignorant. <br /><br /><br />I know if I invited her to my house and aired MY beliefs (that there is no hairy thunderer or cosmic muffin in the sky watching over us) she wouldn't keep HER mouth shut.<br /><br /><br />And that's the trouble with religious fanatics. They won't keep their stupid mouths shut.Buddy Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-39237983914381378022015-01-09T15:12:20.550-06:002015-01-09T15:12:20.550-06:00I saw this comment by R. Moore on balloon-juice:
...I saw this comment by R. Moore on balloon-juice:<br /><br /><b>Muslims are a marginalized minority in France who face all kinds of official and unofficial discrimination. Cartoons lampooning Mohammed are not some kind of bold telling truth to power; they’re the European equivalent of cartoons making jokes about blacks eating fried chicken and watermelons. You can’t understand the reaction of militant Muslims to those cartoons without knowing about the broader social context of long-term political and social marginalization of Muslims in France, anymore than you can understand the response of black Americans to watermelon jokes without knowing something about Jim Crow.</b>Buddy Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-91214228728842897412015-01-09T13:13:38.634-06:002015-01-09T13:13:38.634-06:00Only tangentially related. But, you might find thi...Only tangentially related. But, you might find this Washington Post article interesting.j.ottopohlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-56028095696760196262015-01-09T10:39:39.350-06:002015-01-09T10:39:39.350-06:00"They wouldn't respond by flippantly stat..."They wouldn't respond by flippantly stating, “Zeus isn’t sacred to me.”<br /><br /><br />I wish they would. Likewise, whenever people are tv talking about Jesus Christ, Allah, Muhammad, etc. I wish they would have the courage to not use some honorific like "Lord", "Savior", "Prophet" etc., esp. if they don't subscribe to such fantasies.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-85489406026947258872015-01-09T10:37:41.704-06:002015-01-09T10:37:41.704-06:00"Next week it will be followers of Zeus who w..."Next week it will be followers of Zeus who will want to forbid weather reporting of thunderstorms because it produces lighting and to do so would be an affront to the power of Zeus.<br /><br />Its all absurd beyond belief !"<br /><br /><br /><br />Perfectly stated.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-38927372266297714022015-01-09T10:36:48.659-06:002015-01-09T10:36:48.659-06:00"To what extent should bigots be allowed to p..."To what extent should bigots be allowed to promote hate and provoke, especially when they have a large audience?"<br /><br /><br />Discussions about defamation laws regarding mythological figures should worry any person who believes in democratic ideals. Truly frightening. Are we going to all defenders of Jar Jar Binks and the Star Wars Prequels to have standing in the courts now too?<br /><br /><br />Bigots should be allowed to provoke and promote hate to the absolute limits of the law. Period. This is the price of freedom. Did we not resolve these matters a long time ago in the West?chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com