tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post4903724111142335684..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: Black Americans Know Quite a Bit More Than Mitt Romney About That "Special" Anglo-American RelationshipLady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-28566486586821251352012-08-03T16:24:52.206-05:002012-08-03T16:24:52.206-05:00@Chaunceydevega: I'm happy to move onto other...@Chaunceydevega: I'm happy to move onto other things, after clearing this up. My question had no agenda. I never claimed anything in Obama's speech was untrue. I did not make the claims attributed to me. There is nothing dishonest about posting a quote and asking for opinions on it. (In the interest of space saving, I did not print the entire two paragraphs (or the entire 77, if you want to go to the the extreme end of your reasoning.)<br /><br />I did not post to disprove anything. I posted to ask for the opinions of your readers on part of the speech that had not been dissected.<br /><br />I speak independently and with no collaboration of others -- seemingly the opposite of the "circle jerk" you refer to, which could describe the words of others who echo the same opinions.<br /><br />There is nothing dishonest in what I wrote here. There is a degree of dishonesty in attributing to me words I that I did not use. I asked, with no agenda, for honest answers to a simple question.<br /><br />I asked for opinions. I said as little as I could while putting forth that question.<br /><br />You cannot demonstrate any dishonesty in what I have written. Integrity is of the utmost importance to me. I wish more people felt the same way. <br /><br />You're right. Enough time spent on this. No answers were given to a straight forward question. Let's move on and see if we can all have a civil and honest conversation, in keeping with the standards you have promoted for this site.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-87492614395944807012012-08-03T13:15:25.389-05:002012-08-03T13:15:25.389-05:00Cnu. It is all one big intellectual circle jerk wh...Cnu. It is all one big intellectual circle jerk where they touch on each other's substandard genitals and talk about how mammoth they are. <br /><br />OTB. My final points. I have offered you the chance to make a claim about what you think Obama actually means. You have not. You seem to keep begging for someone to answer your intellectually dishonest question. No one is interested because the premise of your inquiry is based on a fallacy. Quite frankly, you do not come across as an honest interlocutor or agent. Why waste the time engaging you when it is pretty clear that you already have reached a conclusion but for whatever reason will not share it.<br /><br />I am generous and will try to give you an example. You want to ask people what they think about a whole movie but you want them to generalize from one minute of a 2 hour movie. Instead you should be asking for the totality of a thing. What do you think of the whole film and how it is synthesized. <br /><br />Your fixation on Obama's speech is akin to focusing on one small part out of dozens of paragraphs as opposed to dealing with the whole theme and argument presented. And as cnu and others have tried to explain to you there is not one damn thing in Obama's speech that is not true.<br /><br />The burden is on you to disprove Obama's claims. You have brought no evidence nor have you made any sufficient or substantial claim in that regard.<br /><br />Please move the convo forward onto other things.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-10624763670015586862012-08-03T12:18:29.799-05:002012-08-03T12:18:29.799-05:00CDV/Abstentus - what're the odds that these Ra...CDV/Abstentus - what're the odds that these Racism 2.0 busters have codified their scholastic discursive MO into <a href="http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120730/11165/polite-society-honest-truth.htm" rel="nofollow">a memetic framework</a> that genuinely convinces them of the logical and moral propriety of their ways?<br /><br />To us, they come across as obviously and conspicuously insane as we objectively know them to be, but to one another, they come across as "good people" not in any way like those bad knuckle-dragging racists of days gone by?<br /><br />Abstentus summary of Racism 2.0 may bear repeating here; Racism 2.0 says,<b>"Racists are bad people. And I am not a bad person. No matter what racist nonsense I believe. Therefore I am not a racist."</b><br /><br />Substitute "bigot" for "racist" to make it extensible to homosexuality and it remains the fulcrum of the issue.CNuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14152640304402402884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-83974736120042951352012-08-03T11:55:38.544-05:002012-08-03T11:55:38.544-05:00Some people believe that a civil question should g...Some people believe that a civil question should get a civil answer.<br /><br />I, for one, have obeyed your new standards. You might consider a standard that people move things forward by addressing the question at hand, rather than quibbling over how much of a quote is copied (one could never recreate an entire quote here without taking over the page -- something some of us have already noted) -- or questioning the honesty or intelligence or maturity of someone merely because they ask an honest question. (Seems to me that those actions would constitute trolling).<br /><br />One would think that people would not be assailed for following your standards, while others who violate them get your endorsement.<br /><br />And, personally, I see no pleasure in entering a civil discussion and being treated uncivilly for it.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-40856490872164157642012-08-02T21:32:16.127-05:002012-08-02T21:32:16.127-05:00@Cnu and @Razor. That is the funny thing isn't...@Cnu and @Razor. That is the funny thing isn't it? Why do they go through the trouble? What pleasure do they get from it? Fascinating.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-1995745422925134722012-08-02T21:14:11.765-05:002012-08-02T21:14:11.765-05:00CNu, excellent forensic work. I think you may have...CNu, excellent forensic work. I think you may have nabbed a masquerading trool.Razornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-35364343806742493212012-08-02T20:25:09.903-05:002012-08-02T20:25:09.903-05:00@HolidayinCambodia:
Nothing I did was dishonest. ...@HolidayinCambodia:<br /><br />Nothing I did was dishonest. I gave an entire paragraph that was not being discussed, and cited the one that was. I didn't say Obama's words were false. I asked what people thought of the quote that wasn't in the media. And just so we're clear, I'm asking for comments on the FIRST of the following two paragraphs:<br /><br /> There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)<br /><br /> If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.<br /><br />Those words are directly from the White House site. Please forgive me because I had to edit out SEVENTY-FIVE other paragraphs. I hope you'll understand this "editing".<br /><br />Go ahead. Look at the full text for my question, and tell me how I'm dishonest. Thanks.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-84735296208152267432012-08-02T20:24:59.772-05:002012-08-02T20:24:59.772-05:00phuuuuuug OTB...,
{colorbind's second life ai...phuuuuuug OTB...,<br /><br />{colorbind's second life ain't working out any better CDV. Stop playing, and just pull the trigger on disqus commenting so you can kick these oxygen-thieving, digital nut-huggers to the curb}CNuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14152640304402402884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-15091031608128470162012-08-02T18:14:10.155-05:002012-08-02T18:14:10.155-05:00@OTB: you did edit out a large paragraph that was ...@OTB: you did edit out a large paragraph that was relevant to the comment you want us to comment on. You say that you did that because we all know that paragraph. But then, why did you include the first paragraph at all? It seems to me that you were dishonestly quoting the President.<br /><br />Be that as it may, there is nothing in the President's statement that, when taken in context, is at all false or controversial to any real-life person.<br /><br />Is there?HolidayinCambodiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03226367755333794021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-70877963647668933022012-08-02T14:16:48.436-05:002012-08-02T14:16:48.436-05:00@chaunceydevega:
Non sequitur.
I asked for res...@chaunceydevega:<br /><br />Non sequitur. <br /><br />I asked for responses to a quoted paragraph, provided in full, and referenced to a following statement that has been debated ad nauseum. <br /><br />It seems you have misread my words. It seems you have a thesis about my beliefs and by implication their relationship to my ability to think clearly. <br /><br />As I have kindly offered up, I prefer that people be considered for what they actually say, not for what someone imagines they might have meant.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-62450386977431103252012-08-02T13:58:01.580-05:002012-08-02T13:58:01.580-05:00@OTB. As I kindly offered up before. It seems that...@OTB. As I kindly offered up before. It seems that you have a thesis about Obama and his understanding of entrepreneurship and by implication his relationship to American exceptionalism. Make a clear direct claim and write it up. I will post it. Alternatively, make such a claim here so we know exactly what you want to advance.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-15672543127475910482012-08-02T12:43:51.949-05:002012-08-02T12:43:51.949-05:00@chaunceydevega: I despise dishonesty, no matter ...@chaunceydevega: I despise dishonesty, no matter who is guilty of it. I did not dishonestly excise anything. I also didn't make implications in my twice repeated question. I asked for reactions to the paragraph from Obama that immediately preceded the "you didn't build that" segment, the entire text of which has now been debated nearly to death -- which is why I asked about the preceding question. Your characterization (and that of TW) as to my intent are off base. Kindly read what I wrote.<br /><br />My context was clear. I asked about a particular paragraph, and referenced the one it preceded -- seeing no need to reprint it in its entirety, since it's already well known. You are trying to imply something I clearly did not try to imply. If you check my words, your accusation does not fly.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-33300551693583760112012-08-02T12:01:20.258-05:002012-08-02T12:01:20.258-05:00@OTB. You are playing with Confederate money here....@OTB. You are playing with Confederate money here. You are trying to imply by dishonestly excising one part of a speech the whole intent of Obama's comments on entrepreneurship. Not gonna fly here.<br /><br />@TW. Context matters. But with all of the selective editing and outright lies that are being used by the Right in their propaganda/New Speak campaign anything apparently goes.<br /><br />@Oblio. Got to get them and keep them reading early.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-70648517367989446122012-08-02T09:41:58.232-05:002012-08-02T09:41:58.232-05:00Really excellent history lesson-ette. My 10-year-...Really excellent history lesson-ette. My 10-year-old Grandson has become intrigued with history and in particular, the Civil War. He would appreciate this info, as do I. Many thanks!Obliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00532981638701035491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-28252893050362764352012-08-02T09:20:40.818-05:002012-08-02T09:20:40.818-05:00@TreadingWater:
I didn't "edit out" ...@TreadingWater:<br />I didn't "edit out" anything. As stated, I offered the paragraph preceding the one that included "you didn't build that". Since the rest of that paragraph has already been quoted endlessly, I saw no reason to take up even more space with it. I was asking for responses to a paragraph (which preceded the "you didn't build that" one) since it also sounds to diminish individual smarts and effort as causes of success.<br /><br />I'm well aware of the entirety of the "you didn't build that" paragraph. I assume most people are at this point. It is willful ignorance of you to claim I said something I did not say. I asked about the preceding paragraph. I'm still asking. Thanks for staying on topic and avoiding diversions.OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-15851199780863089562012-08-02T08:29:52.391-05:002012-08-02T08:29:52.391-05:00I am a white guy in the south - so I see some thin...I am a white guy in the south - so I see some things. I fear the black vote will not be strong enough come November, and it will be more from apathy than draconian voter ID laws. You can bet the tea party vote will be strong. How do you propose to maximize the black vote? It will be critical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-51359514050742760852012-08-02T08:01:25.886-05:002012-08-02T08:01:25.886-05:00@OTB Why do you edit out the next paragraph befor...@OTB Why do you edit out the next paragraph before the "you didn't build that" statement. <br /><br />"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.<br /><br />Notice that the preceding statement referred to infrastructure and the American business system, which individual entrepreneurs didn't build. You can't have a business without roads and infrastructure to ship your product, an education system to train your workers in basic skills, and a legal system to protect your safety and rights. It's willful ignorance to proclaim that that statement makes President Obama anti-entrepreneur.TreadingWaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17978421753109495911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-58733246088574723252012-08-01T12:46:24.434-05:002012-08-01T12:46:24.434-05:00@Cnu. Never-mind insider trading and other quasi-l...@Cnu. Never-mind insider trading and other quasi-legal things that folks with access to capital and information can parlay to their own benefit. In these conversations many conservatives and others are loathe to admit that there are many inefficient, should be failing, raggedy as hell ventures that are kept alive by knowing how to play the system. I too have seen how gatekeepers and friends with money can make or break a person. Hard work matters, but who you know and what they can do for you matters even more these days.<br /><br />Obama told the truth--a basic one. Unfortunately, the mouth-breathing classes can't accept that fact.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-12485943532927860652012-08-01T11:45:14.224-05:002012-08-01T11:45:14.224-05:00Obama told the truth, period.
As a frustrated ent...Obama told the truth, period.<br /><br />As a frustrated entrepreneur, I've witnessed firsthand the levels of gatekeeping, funds-withholding, and special access privileges afforded to those selected by the local "powers that be" to move ahead.<br /><br />Very, very rarely is the combination of smarts, means, persistence, and luck sufficient to the cause of great wealth building in America. <br /><br />Far more often than not, someone must offer a capital hand-up to make your smarts, means, persistence, and hard work pay off. That's just the truth of the matter.CNuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14152640304402402884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-30722978484007051542012-08-01T11:18:01.273-05:002012-08-01T11:18:01.273-05:00@chaunceydevega:
Despite all the detours, here ag...@chaunceydevega:<br /><br />Despite all the detours, here again is my question:<br /><br />Just curious to know what the readers here think of Obama's words that preceded the "you didn't build that" snippet:<br /><br />"They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-58439889974701081342012-08-01T03:26:50.907-05:002012-08-01T03:26:50.907-05:00@OTB. How could I miss your kind invite? Use the p...@OTB. How could I miss your kind invite? Use the paypal link for donations up top. I messed up and fixed it--thus it wasn't working for quite a bit. Make a donation to our slavery project and I will deduct your amount for personal enrichment--just make a note in the paypal link.<br /><br />I will do a thorough accounting of the drinks, movie, and other sundries I spend your kind monies on ;)<br /><br />More seriously, that is a fair point. In the next iteration of the site there will be a proper donations link--as I said WARN is evolving thanks to the help of folks like you who comment and contribute. I have long said I would not do advertising of donations. Someone with much more experience made a very compelling argument for why I should do otherwise.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong. I may disagree with you. However, I appreciate your comments and the spirit with which they are offered.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-45911525091829760262012-08-01T03:21:39.687-05:002012-08-01T03:21:39.687-05:00@OTB. Nothing to do with intelligence my friend. I...@OTB. Nothing to do with intelligence my friend. I know lots of "smart" naive, foolish, ideologues, who have deluded themselves on any number of issues. This holds on both the Left and Right. Like I said, you are likely a bright person. You are just misdirected.<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"Would it be fair to rate both candidates based on their own words, rather than the words of "advisers", often taken out of context (and sometimes those "advisers" are not even named)? "<br /><br />That is mighty, mighty, mighty, naive as others pointed out.<br /><br />Obama never said that working hard, being innovative, and the like didn't matter. He offered context for the structures that help enable success. Why are you so resistant to such a basic point? Like I said, I am offering you up a platform to develop your anti-Obama hates entrepreneurs thesis. I rarely do this. <br /><br />Funny thing. Few conservatives or others ever take me up on the offer. Sell your wares. I am an honest broker and will not post anything you write without your approval and agreed upon edits. Bring it. Or are you afraid to put your thesis up in the marketplace of ideas?chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-87844188161098420482012-08-01T01:58:16.793-05:002012-08-01T01:58:16.793-05:00@chaunceydevega:
I take "naive/dishonest, ...@chaunceydevega: <br /><br />I take "naive/dishonest, blind, come into the light, first grade civics", etc as a put down of intelligence. I take your allegation that I claimed Romney didn't give his adviser a wink as a derailed detour, as I see no evidence that I made such a statement. I didn't say that Obama is outside the tradition -- I asked for perspective here on his comments that smarts and sweat don't count in creating success (his words, not mine).<br /><br />That's my question, and I'm sticking to it. Rather than attack the legitimacy of the question, why not answer it. And it's not a slogan, it's an exact quote from Obama, which directly preceded his "you didn't build that" comment.<br /><br />Working poor, trustifarians, middle class slogs, joe public, et al: either working harder and working smarter are assets and can set them apart from others, or not. I think reality says it makes a difference, despite Obama's words to the contrary.<br /><br />Finally, as to the success that YOU built, you asked for a check. Where would such check be sent?OTBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-88209806544995063932012-08-01T01:04:09.557-05:002012-08-01T01:04:09.557-05:00@Coolidge. Goodness. Do you like Hoover too?
I di...@Coolidge. Goodness. Do you like Hoover too?<br /><br />I didn't put down your intelligence. I think you are likely a bright person. But, you are very much a talking point conservative. You are also naive/dishonest as revealed by your "innocent" claim that Romney didn't give his inside adviser the wink to continue their anti-black Obama other meme.<br /><br />You have my response. Take your slogans and bring it to the working poor and trustifarians and see how such nice slogans are wholly outside of the structural realities which impact individual life chances, structures, and the like.<br /><br />Place and fortune of birth matters a hell of a lot more than individual initiative in 21st century America. Hell, France has higher rates of intergenerational class mobility than the U.S.--which is 13th I believe. <br /><br />My point on the internet was intentional--if the gov't, the tax payers, and others didn't subsidize the internet we would not be here having this conversation. That was Obama's point. Just as his points on infrastructure, SBA loans, public goods, etc.<br /><br />Please explain how Obama is outside of the American tradition and doesn't understand how "capitalism" works? Please. If so inclined write a guest post for WARN and I will post it.chaunceydevegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652406326490873337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-34206180717269086002012-07-31T23:19:47.812-05:002012-07-31T23:19:47.812-05:00I always knew these right wing fuckes were fucken ...I always knew these right wing fuckes were fucken liars about everything, but I am learning more and more about how deep their lies are embedded in white DNA from your thoroughly researched posts.Comrade Physioprofhttp://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprofnoreply@blogger.com