tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post3019415069067572898..comments2024-03-22T20:34:13.792-05:00Comments on Indomitable | The online home of Chauncey DeVega: William Saletan's Act of Parrhesia: The Chattanooga Mass Shooting was a 'Legal' Act of War, Not TerrorismLady Zora, Chauncey DeVega, and Gordon Gartrellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09138154899923808806noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-16103027103103542932015-07-20T21:33:03.412-05:002015-07-20T21:33:03.412-05:00One can equally argue that the mass killings here ...One can equally argue that the mass killings here were indeed an act of terrorism just as the drone strikes abroad are acts of terrorism. One can equally argue that war itself is terrorism. Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. But its reality is horrific.mari theresenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-54980467575257806232015-07-20T14:52:07.735-05:002015-07-20T14:52:07.735-05:00sorry to bring this up, but are you gonna address ...sorry to bring this up, but are you gonna address the whole West/Coates brouhaha? Really need your insight to make sense of it allAshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-5434296554816769322015-07-20T11:22:28.492-05:002015-07-20T11:22:28.492-05:00Just catching up so pretty late with this and I do...Just catching up so pretty late with this and I don't have much to add to these generally good comments. It's just that I find it kind of stunning that Saletan would have written this and that <i>Slate</i> would run it. He has always been one of those nominal "liberals" (in truth pretty much running the neoliberal line) who would go all swaggering Texan at any kind of terrorist attack or even serious criticism of America. And <i>Slate</i> is mostly just centrist, WaPo subsidiary click-bait. I can't see what kind of comments he got because they won't load!OldPolarBearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-62028733425648962662015-07-20T10:21:22.709-05:002015-07-20T10:21:22.709-05:00There were some accounts related to Abu Ghraib tha...There were some accounts related to Abu Ghraib that said Lyndie England may not have done any of the actual torture, or barely participated, and that she was just there and did that one pose with the victims while someone snapped a picture. That doesn't make her innocent, or course, but her punishment may have been way out of proportion while others more guilty walked away from that free.OldPolarBearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-79297850269322806592015-07-20T01:12:24.346-05:002015-07-20T01:12:24.346-05:00Indeed the enemy is incompatible with us values an...Indeed the enemy is incompatible with us values and should be expelled. However it's not radical Islam that's the enemy but radical right that's the threat; far more pressing and lethalDan Kasteraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-7563733337309167302015-07-19T21:02:05.532-05:002015-07-19T21:02:05.532-05:00I would be reluctant to call those killings an act...I would be reluctant to call those killings an act of war because then that supports the extra legal "enemy combatant" concept, wherein anyone can be designated as such for political reasons and summarily killed.Gable1111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-55218166605563502792015-07-19T18:56:47.000-05:002015-07-19T18:56:47.000-05:00It is not about bravery or nobility. War is about ...It is not about bravery or nobility. War is about advancing your political goals and destroying the enemy to the degree necessary. Call me a realist. I prefer that my enemies be unarmed, vulnerable, asleep, and me and my forces being in the maximum position to inflict harm on them while being protected myself.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-72333226661900588592015-07-19T18:40:25.672-05:002015-07-19T18:40:25.672-05:00Saleton will be studiously ignored because the log...Saleton will be studiously ignored because the logic of the truth of what he describes is so simple even the lowest of "low information voter" can grasp it. To engage on any serious level will mean giving Saleton's premise a wider stage and they realize the threat to American exceptionalism that would be.Gable1111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-11390604162798412462015-07-19T18:10:15.687-05:002015-07-19T18:10:15.687-05:00I don't think anyone is brave or honorable who...I don't think anyone is brave or honorable who guns down unarmed people on whatever side. If Abdulazeez felt the need to fight and kill he could have stayed overseas or left to join ISIS. This whole narrative of "war" is I think accelerant for those who would argue that by virtue of culture/religion that Abdulazeez and those like him are congenitally incapable of being Americans.<br /><br /><br />I disagree with that so I think it's important to keep a distinction between murder and war.Shady Gradyhttp://theurbanpolitico.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-16113872726588400622015-07-19T18:02:30.995-05:002015-07-19T18:02:30.995-05:00Every country in the Western Hemisphere, and argua...Every country in the Western Hemisphere, and arguably the entire world was built on war and conquest at some point. It's the nature of the state. My issue is not with Saletan talking about blowback. My issue is with him calling it war, which it wasn't. It was murder.<br /><br /><br />If it is war and a true conflict of civilizations then Geller and her ilk are right, the "enemy" has no business in our country and Islam is incompatible with US culture.<br /><br /><br />I don't believe that so I am resistant to the idea that this is war.Shady Gradyhttp://theurbanpolitico.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-66873870069218358112015-07-19T16:08:46.122-05:002015-07-19T16:08:46.122-05:00Some of us are more guilty than others but we all ...Some of us are more guilty than others but we all have blood on our hands.joe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-26411671786994967332015-07-19T15:30:13.083-05:002015-07-19T15:30:13.083-05:00I applaud him for his courage. I think he is righ...I applaud him for his courage. I think he is right. I have privately thought that the Obama administration has done its best to hide its drone war. Most Americans, taking their lack of information from the media, are not very well informed about the drone war. My thinking was along the lines of, there are many young men and women who have lost fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters, uncles, etc in drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, and elsewhere. One of these days into the future he/she is going to come here and conduct a terrorist strike. He/she will leave a posting or video as to why and the vast majority of Americans will be like--where the hell is that country?; where the hell is that village?; we did what, when? why? why do they hate us?<br /><br />I think what Saletan wrote is what I would call the logical outcome of our policy. We kill wedding parties in Yemen or elsewhere and you have to expect someone is going to react here.<br /><br />There's an old song with the line, "When you own a big chunk of the bloody third world, the babies come with the scenery"! Well, you have to expect retaliatory strikes inside the homeland when you are waging a war against a multi-headed hyrdra network.<br /><br />I remember my Finnish wife asking me about Abu Ghraib and what it meant. I told her that Abu Ghraib was the logical outcome of a policy originating in the White House with the president. You authorize torture and that is what you get. There is no reason to get upset with our young men and women who are doing simply what you authorized. Does it look good? No. Are we embarrassed? Yes. Was it illegal and immoral? Yes, without a doubt. But, they were not the "bad apples." Those were our neighbors we sent to war and told them acting like barbarians and savages outside the rules of war because we were "going to the dark side," according to our un-indicted war criminal vice president.James Scaminaci III, PhDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-44617593306002103002015-07-19T14:24:48.533-05:002015-07-19T14:24:48.533-05:00The legal standard may be different, i.e. being su...The legal standard may be different, i.e. being subjected to summary execution, but a person acting in the stead of a foreign agent to wage war against their "own" country is still "war". The U.S. convinces and turns people against their own countries all the time. We call them "allies" or "brave" and "honorable" people.chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-46409141411372374012015-07-19T11:08:14.806-05:002015-07-19T11:08:14.806-05:00Saletan et. al. are pointing out that foreign wars...Saletan et. al. are pointing out that foreign wars have a blow back effect that brings the war home in the form of domestic terror.joe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-33474421073648394722015-07-19T11:03:59.393-05:002015-07-19T11:03:59.393-05:00In the 1960's it took a huge peace movement to...In the 1960's it took a huge peace movement to end the Viet Nam war. The new pacifism is in its early stages of development. wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_Benjaminjoe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-39229728063612823692015-07-19T10:37:58.184-05:002015-07-19T10:37:58.184-05:00Well war was declared on both black people and nat...Well war was declared on both black people and native Americans for centuries and is still ongoing. Indeed the USA was built on war and conquestDan Kasteraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-16634587692300152512015-07-19T10:36:48.889-05:002015-07-19T10:36:48.889-05:00I look forward to pacifism. I grew up on action mo...I look forward to pacifism. I grew up on action movies so i was raised at the altar of violence fetishism. <br /><br />As a grown man, I've lost all taste for bad Hollywood propaganda and real war. <br /><br />Hopefully the pacifism message spreads. We can't survive bronze age tribalism in the 21 centuryDan Kasteraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-86961053018953069382015-07-19T08:21:41.664-05:002015-07-19T08:21:41.664-05:00One man's freedom fighter is another man's...One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Saletan exposes the double standard that lies buried beneath a mountain of media propaganda. American exceptionalism has taken the nation from a Commonwealth to its present status of xenophobic back water. <br /><br />The contraction of civil society has allowed rightist conspiratorialty to enter the vacuum and construct a right wing barzarro world animated by an archaic Crusading sense of barbarity. <br /><br />The feeling of confidence gained from the notion that "we" are the most powerful gang on the planet is being shook by routine random acts of domestic terror. When Americans finally ascertain that blow back from "endless war" is not worth the the price of "public endangerment" they'll be chastened by a new wave of pacifism.joe manningnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-55172154426531169982015-07-19T05:46:22.082-05:002015-07-19T05:46:22.082-05:00How is it an act of war for an American citizen to...How is it an act of war for an American citizen to kill other American citizens? In his eagerness to criticize American policies the writer legitimizes viewpoints shared by the Pamela Gellers and Daniel Pipes of the world.Shady Gradyhttp://theurbanpolitico.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-46356312134052517892015-07-19T03:27:05.768-05:002015-07-19T03:27:05.768-05:00Lots of emotion and feelings. I appreciate thoroug...Lots of emotion and feelings. I appreciate thorough and long comments. Do share. What 4 or 5 direct and parsimonious concerns are you feeling right now? Saletan, like other authors, got permission from the Editor(s) to run this piece. Why? What is the longer game? Did Saletan get a piece that drives traffic in the best sense but also lets whee bit of truth slip out in this professional wrestling is politics game?chauncey devegahttp://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57113078446695664.post-63265388918728892742015-07-18T21:37:18.870-05:002015-07-18T21:37:18.870-05:00Depends if it is picked up or not but if it makes ...Depends if it is picked up or not but if it makes any waves I suspect it will only be a little bit until the apology tour comes. "I was misquoted" and "Of course I respect the troops and it's not the same thing" blah blah blah. Americans don't think other lives matter, period. Maybe English and Israelis lives but no one else. Hell, americans don't even care that more than 13% of it's population are open targets for state execution and enslavement for corporate profit. Why would we be surprised that they don't care about Pakistani children blown up night and day by their psychopathic president? I have lost track of how many times I have seen or read the news where they describe some killing or tragedy where "200 were killed, 3 of them american." Fuck the other 197 only 3 yanks matter. <br />The disconnect between those the USA pays to kill poor people overseas(used to be called mercenaries now we say soldiers) and those who don't is wide enough that we think of them as heroes for risking their lives for the empire. So when the arm of the state goes to some far off land and kills innocent children, women and men it's collateral damage and not our fault. Out of sight and out of mind. Only imperialist twits view combat this way. Nearly every corner of the middle east as well as nearly all of Africa and soon Asia understands the American program. There is no police action. There is no freedom project. American are killing, raping stealing and destroying other nations and their resources because we can. This is war to destroy and enslave anyone we choose to. Destroy other peoples lives while upending your own citizens in the name of security is an old playbook. And still we are told that only are lives matter. Who even talks about war anymore? Saying this is an act of war is no more brave than saying the police are racist murdering rapist shit stains. It will ruffle some feathers till it is forgotten. Want to be brave than publish the names of every person killed by american wars in the last 14 years. Show their grieving families. Tell people of their dreams, hopes, what made them laugh, what made them cry and than show the body. Everyday. We will either own up to are lack of shits given about other people or we will stop this and imprison the bastards that are ordering the murder of other people in our name. DO the same for the americans we kill at home and things will change. It's pathetic that just saying something that is clearly an act of war for retaliation for our acts of war is considered brave. If this were fiction the viewers of it would say it makes no goddamn sense. Life has always been this bizarre but christ if I still struggle to comprehend how everything always seems so backwards.RPMnoreply@blogger.com